Transcribed by Emily June
-THEME MUSIC-
Missy
Hello, and welcome to Fake Geek Girls, a podcast looking at nerdy pop culture from both a fan and critical perspective, encouraging the things we love to do better. I’m Missy, I’m a writer, and I feel like The Matrix is probably like the prime example of wow, I appreciate this, and I don’t like it.
Merri
I’m Merri, I’m a marketer, and I’d like to take the time to acknowledge that Missy is really smart. I want to read through this outline, I can see how much effort she put into it, and – not that she doesn’t put a lot effort into it –
Missy
The other ones I just shit right out-
Merri
-this is some dense stuff. And I understood a lot of it! So I’d like to take this time to acknowledge that Missy is really smart.
Missy
Thank you!
Merri
And we should all appreciate her for listening to Philosophize This twice.
Missy
I’m – I’m actually reading right now, I checked out from the library, there’s a book that’s all about like connecting The Matrix to philosophy, which is really helpful, and I think it’s really good at explaining stuff. So if you’re more into The Matrix than I am, and you want to know more about the connections to philosophy, it’s called Splinter In Your Mind. I can’t remember who the author is, it’s downstairs right now. But you’ll probably hear some quotes from it on the next episode. I just didn’t get it in time for this one. So today, we’re talking about The Matrix. We’re talking – this is going to be the first of two episodes about The Matrix – this one will cover… well, I’ll talk about that in a second. This is a series of films by the Wachowski sisters following Neo, who believes he is a computer hacker in 1999. In fact, the real world has been taken over by AI-powered machines invented by humans after a war the humans lost. Humans “torched the sky” quote, unquote, to eliminate the machines’ access to solar power, which not to editorialize here, but that sounds like a fucking terrible idea. The machines retaliated by farming humans as batteries and plugging them into “the matrix.”
Merri
Which is essentially what the humans did to them.
Missy
Right. And the matrix is a simulated reality. Neo is awoken from the matrix by Morpheus, who believes he is the one a prophesied savior who will free humanity from this existence of like, battery slavery. Though he does not initially appear to be the One, Trinity, another human living outside the matrix, falls in love with him, and he dies and is resurrected at a key moment, and therefore he is the one. I have some complaints about the story there, but whatever.
Merri
What if Morpheus was Mobius?
Missy
Morbius.
Merri
Morbius.
Missy
What if? What if? Think about that – don’t.
Merri
Can’t believe that movie was memed back into theaters.
Missy
I know, it’s doing badly. Next is The Animatrix, which is a series of short animated films that flesh out the world of The Matrix and include some hints about what’s to come. You see that a lot more people are actively pushing back against the matrix, which makes the story less about one group of liberators and more about a conscious movement. I really liked The Animatrix, I thought it was the strongest one of the ones we watched so far. And third, you have The Matrix Reloaded in which Agent Smith, who is a program of the matrix, and one of the antagonists of the first movie, manages to escape the matrix and enter the real world. The Oracle tells Neo, he must go to the Source of the matrix, which he attempts to do by rescuing the Keymaster. This is literally what everybody’s named, I think it’s so funny and silly, and I like it. A lot of things go wrong. And Neo eventually learns that being the One is by design of the Matrix. Like, he essentially – he’s not programmed to exist, but also he’s kind of programmed to exist, you know.
Merri
I feel like this would make a really good young adult TV show. You know what I mean?
Missy
Yeah, yeah.
Merri
Like, it’s just good. And you’re like, oh, man, this is good.
Missy
Then they couldn’t have the hot fucking in it.
Merri
Mm, this is true.
Missy
Yeah, so, Neo discovers that being the One is actually by design of the Matrix, and he is actually the sixth One. And he now has to make a choice to reboot the Matrix and kill everybody except a handful of people that he’s going to hand select or, go to save Trinity and kill literally everybody. It’s really weird choice. Like, the choice is, everybody dies or everybody dies. It’s not a great ultimatum. He chooses to go save Trinity, which honestly, I feel like is like, why the fuck not?
Merri
Because everyone dies.
Missy
Yeah, it’s like everybody or six people – everybody – I mean, it’s a classic trolley problem, isn’t it? It’s just like, it is a weird choice. Anyway, so he chooses to go save Trinity, Zion is attacked. Neo deus-ex-machinas them out of dying with his cool new lighting powers, and the movie ends on a super cliffhanger because Agent Smith is hanging out in the real world and Neo’s in a coma. So –
Merri
Happens.
Missy
Yeah, it was a lot.
This franchise really wears its influences and themes on its sleeve. It is not shy about saying precisely what it means. And as we all know, I fucking admire that. Like, I really – I don’t really care for The Matrix. I know, unpopular opinion, I’m not a cyberpunk fan. I want to talk more about cyberpunk in the next episode. I just, I had to explain Baudrillard in this episode, and that was going to take 1000 years. So there was only so much I could do. So we’ll talk more about cyberpunk next time, but I’m just not really a cyberpunk fan, which seems kind of weird because cyberpunk is like a direct derivative of Noir. But for whatever reason, like the aesthetics of cyberpunk, just don’t do it to me, I think like, it’s really cool. And I’m happy that it exists. But I don’t generally speaking, enjoy it.
Merri
I’m – I would agree with that. I think it’s really interesting in what it’s doing, it just doesn’t hit what I like about sci-fi. Which is why I think The Animatrix does, because I think the robot uprising is really interesting.
Missy
Yeah.
Merri
And, when later on, I find those parts of the movie the most interesting.
Missy
Yeah.
Merri
When they’re fighting, like the last – the last one in The Animatrix, I was just kind of like, eh, it just feels like The Matrix.
Missy
Right.
Merri
It’s not really giving me much different.
Missy
The last one was the one that they use to promote The Animatrix I think, and it was the least interesting.
Merri
Yeah, it’s the least interesting. But I love the one where they get the robot on their side, and then like everyone fucking dies!
Missy
That was like the the prime example of women may not wear pants.
Merri
No one wore pants.
Missy
I think men wore pants.
Merri
Oh, I’m thinking in the dream time.
Missy
Oh, not in the dream, no –
Merri
Oh yeah no, there’s no pants!
Missy
Women are not allowed to wear pants in the matrix!
Merri
They just walk around in their underwear. Or, I guess leather.
Missy
Yeah, you can have leather pants. I was just kind of struck by the amount – the lack, I should say rather – of pants present in the real world of the matrix.
Merri
Yeah.
Missy
There was just not a lot of pants there. Which, you know, chase your bliss.
Merri
Yeah. But I thought that was really interesting. And like, I thought that was a really good story to tell. And that’s what I like. I think that’s more interesting. I think-
Missy
Yeah.
Merri
Digging more into like, the robots, but you call them aliens? Or – it’s just – I don’t know, it’s just that interest.
Missy
You just – you just prefer machines to humanity, and we know this about you.
Merri
This is true, I love a droid.
Missy
We know, we just know.
Merri
Which really helps me in the last movie.
Missy
Yeah, so I – I really appreciate what this franchise is doing. I like it on an intellectual level – on an enjoyability level, I don’t care. I like – I’m really sorry, but I’m watching this, and I’m just like, this is not for me. There are moments that I really like it. But it’s not every moment.
Merri
I wonder if they strayed away from the cool and put more into other stuff, if you would have liked it.
Missy
I would like it more if they invested two seconds in a character. Any of them! I just feel like all of them are so cool to a person who isn’t me, like that – that style of cool doesn’t resonate with me, and the characterization is just more about fulfilling archetypal roles than it is about being characters. And that’s why I just kind of – I’m just like, it’s not, it’s just not for me. It’s not – it’s not my kind of cool. And I, you know, I love an archetype, but it’s like, you got to – you got to DO IT. Like you got to give them a person – a personhood too – not just be the archetype.
Merri
Oh, it’s almost like they’re just still in the matrix, because they’re just shells.
Missy
We’re all in the matrix.
Merri
What’s – what’s life, then?
Missy
Truly, we’ll get – we’ll get there. Don’t worry. So, as I said, like five minutes ago, The Matrix is not shy about saying precisely what it means. The Wachowskis in general, not fucking shy, and I appreciate that!
Merri
It very much reminds me of – what’s his name? George Romero.
Missy
Yeah, yeah.
Merri
Just like increasingly like no, this – this is it! This is exactly what –
Missy
You’re gonna get it this time, right? So, I want to start with some of the broad cultural influences and references, and then we’ll get into the parts that really felt like homework for me, because reading about post-structuralism was just really fucking hard for me for some reason.
Merri
I really loved every time I got to read the word simulacra-
Missy
Simulacra.
Merri
-because it’s just really satisfying.
Missy
It is. It is a cool word, to be honest.
Merri
Yeah, I just – it just feels like the “cra” of it feels good, and the “sla” of it.
Missy
Yeah, the “sla” and the “cra”
Merri
We’re so – I’m so intellectual –
Missy
Mhmm –
Merri
I love the “sla and the cra!”
Missy
We’re geniuses here. The first – I think one of the biggest, and most obvious immediate references is Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland and Through the Looking-Glass. They are two of the major cultural touchstones in the first movie. In the first scene where we’re introduced to Neo he’s told to follow the White Rabbit which is what eventually leads him to Trinity, and then Morpheus. Which is a really clear reference, right? You hear follow the White Rabbit you’re like, “Oh, well, Alice in Wonderland.”
Merri
They’re like, “Okay, everyone will get this.”
Missy
Although at this point, maybe people hear, “Follow the White Rabbit,” and they go, “Oh, The Matrix.” But the basic concept of a world that exists alongside the real world is also central to all three stories: The Matrix, Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland, and Through the Looking-Glass. In the case of Through the Looking-Glass in particular, Alice enters “Looking-Glass Land” after wondering what’s on the other side of the mirror. In The Matrix, Neo’s entry into the real world consists of him being sort of smothered by a liquid mirror. The tone of each story is different, obviously. But the method is similar and we know that the Wachowskis are consciously invoking the Alice stories because of the “follow the White Rabbit” quote, like-
Merri
They wanted you to get it.
Missy
Yeah, and I can’t remember exactly what Morpheus says, but he says like, take the blue pill, stay in Wonderland. Like these are-
Merri
-And then it also really reminds me of like, you eat one to get bigger. You eat the other-
Missy
Yeah, yep. Yep. It’s – they’re very consciously invoking-
Merri
They want you to get it!
Missy
They want you to get it. Interestingly, The Matrix functions almost like the looking-glass world to Alice. She dreams a new world to explore, he awakens in the real one. She travels through the mirror to a strange place, he’s subsumed by the mirror into the real place. It feels like a conscious decision to, instead of showing us an interesting journey into a fictional world, situate us with the character who needs to wake up. So there’s like this interesting reversal going on of the familiar story of Alice in Wonderland and The Matrix, which kind of inverts it. So this is a quote from “Rewriting ‘Reality’: Reading ‘The Matrix'” by Russell J. Kilbourne, who writes, “The film’s almost parodically literal,” Lac- oh god, Lacanian? Lacanian? Again, one of those names I’ve read a whole bunch, and I haven’t actually said. I think it’s Lycanthrope No, I’m- that’s a joke. “The film’s almost parodically literal, Lacanian mirror scene departs from “Alice” in the same gesture of invoking Carroll’s narrative. Neo does not pass through the licking- looking glass,” and the licking glass, good grief, “but literally merges with it, the “real” and “not-real” becoming momentarily indistinguishable, as if in order to show that what has been taken for real is in fact, as illusory as its cracked and distorted reflection. As Baudrillard might say, the simulacrum is a mirror that reflects only itself. But Neo’s journey does not stop here, and Baudrillard (like Neo’s “residual self-image”) is quickly left behind. We are invoking philosophers before we’ve gotten to the philosophy section, so please bear with me. We’re gonna put a pin in Baudrillard, and we’ll come back to him later.
Merri
The amount of times I’ve heard Baudrillard, just the name.
Missy
Baudrillard.
Merri
Baudrillard, that’s what I’m gonna name my child.
Missy
So two things: the Lacanian “mirror scene” refers to the part when the mirror subsumes Neo, and also to a stage proposed by Jacques Lacan- is it Lacan?
Merri
Do you want me to see if Google will tell me?
Missy
No, I want to struggle. I know I learned about Lucan, “Lucahn”, “Lucawn”, pecan, I don’t know!
Merri
Pecan!
Missy
I learned about him-
Merri
Okay here-
Missy
-in English, but I don’t remember how to pronounce it.
Merri
“Lack-in”
Missy
No way! “Lack-in??” Ughhhhh-
Merri
I just want to pronounce it correctly.
Missy
So I’m just going to continue to mispronounce Lacan, is what we’re learning.
Merri
Lacan.
Missy
So yeah, it’s referring to not only to the scene in which Neo is subsumed by the mirror, but also a stage proposed by Jacques Lacan, a psychoanalyst who initially suggested the mirror stage as the stage of development when infants begin to recognize themselves in mirrors, and later as an ongoing stage where a person recognizes their own subjectivity and they start to develop The Ego. And this is not just like, “an ego” like Kanye West, “I got a big ego.” It’s- that’s a song.
Merri
For those who don’t know-
Missy
-For those who don’t know. It’s like the Id, the Ego, and the Super Ego.
Merri
When I read this part, I was like, I thought, the first time I looked in the mirror I thought noses were weird, and I shouldn’t have one.
Missy
You were right, though, noses are weird.
Merri
They are, you love them though.
Missy
I love them.
Merri
But noses are weird. And so I was like, this is maybe the truth in which I saw.
Missy
So Lacan also wrote extensively about the Imaginary, the Symbolic, and the Real, all of which are capitalized, so you know, they’re important. And he referred to the Real as “impossible” so it is not surprising that he’s also invoked intentionally or not in The Matrix. It’s almost certainly intentionally. Like-
Merri
Yeah.
Missy
I don’t doubt for a second it’s intentionally, but it’s not like- they did not- the Wachowskis did not signpost Lacan in the same way that they signposted Baudrillard. Again, we’ll get to Baudrillard later, but the point that Kilbourne is making here is that the mirror is proven false, right? It doesn’t show the truth, it shows an invention disguised as truth. Again, Baudrillard will come later.
Merri
So are they saying that the reality is Wonderland, or not Wonderland?
Missy
They are saying- so using the mirror, to my understanding, they are showing essentially that when the mirror subsumes Neo, it is only- it is recreating what has already been done to Neo. The illusion is enveloping him in the same way that he’s already been enveloped by The Matrix.
Merri
But which way is he coming from?
Missy
I think it’s a reversal. So, in Through the Looking-Glass, she’s like, “What would be on the other side of the mirror?” and she steps through the mirror. In this case, the Neo’s being forcibly shown what is on the other side of the mirror, as the mirror takes initiative to overcome.
Merri
I get that, I see it. I get that, I could get the other way too because Wonderland is fucking terrifying.
Missy
That is true.
Merri
But I don’t think-I think yeah, I think that-
Missy
-I was reading. I think actually, it was reading Ursula K. Leguin this morning, and in the essay was- oh, I can’t remember, maybe it wasn’t Ursula Leguin, some writer, maybe Ursula Leguin was talking about the fact that Alice in Wonderland was a strange story because Alice doesn’t behave like a child in it, and that she’s never scared, which is very interesting.
Merri
She just gets angry.
Missy
Yeah, I don’t- that might be… I can remember who I was reading- doesn’t matter. So, to break down the quote, the film makes this almost funny, literal interpretation of Lacan’s mirror stage in that Neo’s body is literally taken over by a mirror, helping him establish his true self. That is figuratively when Lacan talks about the mirror stage, the interaction of the mirror and the body is what helps a baby establish itself, it helps the person establish personhood by recognizing that they have a body. in The Matrix, the- the mirror overtakes the body and establishes that what Neo sees as his true self is, in fact, not his true self. At the same time, it’s continuing to invoke Alice in Wonderland given that she travelled through the looking-glass in the second book, and by doing this the Wachowskis show us the melding of media references with philosophy, and that Neo has been living in a world of illusion that no matter how real it feels or looks, is a recreation of something simulated (that is the simulacra). Again, we’ll get back to the simulacra.
Merri
It took a long time, and even now I’m like- I still struggle with what’s- like I know what simulacra is, but it’s still really hard to wrap my mind around it.
Missy
When I- because I was reading a lot for this. And I kind of have to remind myself like, it’s almost like when you’re learning a foreign word, and you have to mentally translate it- that’s what I was having to do with simulacra-
Merri
Yeah-
Missy
-For a large part of outlining this episode. So now over 20 years later, it feels kind of cliche and trite to essentially say, “What if the real world… Was fake??” Like, that just feels kind of silly, now, 20 years after this has come out. But I think the reason that the idea of life as a simulation became something discussed by the average person is because of The Matrix like, I just don’t think that simulation- like “life is a simulation” was really on the minds of the average person before this movie.
Merri
Really gives me early conspiracy theory.
Missy
Yeah. And I find simulation theory personally very boring and annoying, to be honest. I once saw it described as religion for tech bros. And like, show me the lie there.
Merri
I think that’s so accurate.
Missy
We will talk about determinism in a bit because they have- they are connected. And we will talk about where this movie sort of fails for me, because in the end of the movie, it does. It doesn’t quite get there for me. But I think it’s a good thing, actually, for people to begin to question the world that they’ve always lived in. Whether the movie is fully successful in achieving that goal, instead of just leading people towards simulation theory, I think is where it breaks down. But again, we’ll talk about that later. Anything about Alice in Wonderland?
Merri
No, I should reread it.
Missy
So this is- I also want to talk about references to myth and the classics.
Merri
This is so interesting to me.
Missy
So there’s lots of mythological and classical references. The references to classical philosophers, Socrates’s- it’s attributed to Socrates, but also a lot of people said it, but it’s probably referencing Socrates in this- the words “Know thyself” are above the kitchen door the Oracle’s house. Really, the entirety of it is like an like an allegory of allegory of the cave. Where you know, you have the shadows on the cave wall being The Matrix and the real world existing behind it.
Merri
It’s one of my favorites, I love Allegory of the Cave, mostly because it was one of the first ones I fully grasped.
Missy
Yeah, you have like a fondness-
Merri
Yeah I have a fondness, attachment, like I fully grasped that one!
Missy
But there are also references to Greek myth. The name Morpheus comes from the Greek god of sleep and dreams (one of them) Greek, Greek gods. There’s lots. Which makes it kind of funny to me that he’s the one to wake Neo up. He’s the God of dreams, but he’s also like, “Wake up Neo.” There’s Persephone, who is the wife of the Merovingian. Listen, I don’t remember how to pronounce that anymore. It’s been a while since I watched the movie, it might be Merovingian. So, Persephone is a reference to Persephone, the wife of Hades and ruler of the underworld and Greek myth. The Merovingian actually works as a standard for Hades for reasons that aren’t really discussed until the next movie-
Merri
That’s the French guy, right?
Missy
Yeah, the French guy.
Merri
I love him.
Missy
Yeah?
Merri
Not- not in this, so he gets
Missy
“I love him!”
Merri
Not because he gets- he does not get better, but he comes back.
Missy
The reason these references are interesting to me is that they both make the themes front and center, while also sometimes reversing expectations, and they situate the characters of this movie in conversation with these myths and with history-
Merri
But what if these- this story was the original man?
Missy
I mean, we wouldn’t know, right? That’s the thing. That’s the thing that interests me is- is by invoking all of these things the creators of the movie are saying, “This is part of it.”
Merri
Yeah, it’s really interesting.
Missy
They’re not- it’s not like a retelling or anything. It’s just literally like, this is part of it. It also raises some really interesting questions for me, like did Morpheus intentionally name himself after the Greek god? And if so, where did he learn about Morpheus?
Merri
Yeah! And if he learned about it- I mean, I guess it could have just been oral history that was passed on.
Missy
He might have learned it in Zion, he might have learned it while in The Matrix, we don’t really know. But it really interests me that he chose like- the implication being that he chose that name for himself. Where did he- is it possible that he retained it from life in the Matrix, but why that name? Likewise, why Persephone? Does the Oracle read Socrates? Like, is that why she has that quote? Or are these comments from the Wachowskis that situate their film in the realm of mythology? And I think that’s really what it is for me, is that they are by invoking you know, Socrates and myth and all of these different things they’re saying, “We want you to think about these things while you are thinking about our movie.”
Merri
Yeah.
Missy
You should consider it in conversation with one another. And the idea of this film as mythology is really interesting because Roland Barthes, yet another philosopher, wrote an entire book called “Mythologies”, in which he discusses the fact that modern society (both then and now) often sees itself as beyond mythology. Like mythology is something that ancient culture’s created to explain things to themselves like that, you know, you see lightning in the sky, and you go, well, there has to be a reason for that, I bet it’s a god throwing thunderbolts.
Merri
I remember seeing when I went to Starbucks, seeing a person with a shirt that had a bunch of Greek gods on it, and it said “theology” on it. And I thought that was so cool. As a person who’s really into religious history, I was like, more that!
Missy
Yeah. And, according to Barthes, modern people see that- we see ourselves as not needing that anymore. We have the answers. But there are many contemporary mythologies. We just don’t see them because we are mired in them. The episodes on structuralism and mythology from Philosophize This are quite good at explaining these concepts, and well worth a listen. So, if you’re confused by what I’m saying, go listen to that, he does a great job explaining it. He uses the example of something as seemingly apolitical as soap to explain this. Because when you think of soap you’re not like, “Oh, politics. Fucking politics back at it again with the soap!”
Merri
Unless you’re thinking about Fight Club.
Missy
Unless you’re thinking about Fight Club. Like, generally speaking, when we think of soap, it’s just the thing we used to clean right? It’s that’s just a tool that we use for that. It is effectively just nice smelling bubbles- I think is what he says in the episode. But why do we emphasize being clean at all? Why is that a value that we all have to uphold?
Merri
No one wants to be stinky!
Missy
Why?
Merri
Because stinky smells bad.
Missy
Why?
Merri
Well things just smell bad.
Missy
Do they?
Merri
Yeah.
Missy
Are you sure?
Merri
Well, I think they smelled bad when I was a baby.
Missy
You think that a lot of things smell bad that actually smell quite good to me. So who’s right?
Merri
You’re a bitch. This is what was hard for me though, because it felt like, this is a real thing. And so it’s difficult for me to look at that as a myth because like, it is a real thing for me.
Missy
Soap is a real thing. Sure.
Merri
Being clean is a real thing- in my head its logical.
Missy
Well, okay, let’s set aside soap for a minute and use another example that I know that you can resonate with: deodorant.
Merri
What about it?
Missy
Deodorant, for most of human history, we didn’t really use it. We didn’t need it. It wasn’t until and like- shaving, diamond rings-
Merri
Shaving is stupid.
Missy
It is stupid. It is. It is not a very useful thing to do. And it wasn’t until marketing companies decided that they wanted to sell razors to women that we felt that we needed to shave our legs, and now shaving our legs is a norm.
Merri
I guess we’re- I guess, okay, that makes sense. I think where I got hung up was the mythology and myth, and myth is part of mythology. And for me, when I think of mythology, I’m thinking of something very different than myth. But when you put- when I think about that root word of it, it makes more sense.
Missy
Yeah, mythology, we often think of as like stories to explain phenomena when in fact, like it is just a way of explaining culture a lot of the time, simply.
Merri
Dismissively, almost, you’re calling it a myth.
Missy
Yeah, there’s a connotation to myth that it no longer exists, and not everybody uses it that way intentionally, but that’s the connotation of the word. So when Barthes is talking about mythologies, he’s talking about these same stories that explain our culture that we tell ourselves that are not necessarily rooted in anything, right? Like, the idea that I need to shave my legs is not real. Nothing will happen to me- it is not dirty to not shave my legs or armpits or whatever.
Merri
It is itchy.
Missy
It is itchy, but it is not- it is not dirty. But our culture says it is dirty. That is the mythology that we buy into. Not everybody, of course, but the norm in our culture is for women to have shaved legs and armpits, and for dishes to be clean. And like there’s nothing wrong with cleaning your dishes. That’s not what we’re arguing here. It’s just that there is language and associations with cleanliness, that have repercussions beyond a dish, right? He also talks about, in this episode, he talks about the fact that we use violent language to discuss soap. “It destroys stains, it obliterates grease.”
Merri
This is so interesting.
Missy
Why do we use that violent language to talk about soap? There is an implication that we’re destroying filth, right? What else constitutes filth in our culture? And do we talk about it in the same way? When you talk- when you think about things like ethnic cleansing? Why do we use that word? Why does that word connect to something as innocuous as soap? Like this is where it starts to get very, complicated, where it’s like, yeah, it’s just soap. But the language we use to describe soap can be used to describe other things. And those- that’s where the mythology comes in is, it’s about soap, but it’s also not just about soap, because there are all of these other connotations wrapped up in how we talk about something as innocuous as soap.
Merri
Hm, interesting.
Missy
The point here is that we like to think we’re beyond mythology, right? Because, you know, we don’t need stories about how lightning happens, because we know how lightning happens. And I don’t know personally, but people
Merri
Something about trees and ground.
Missy
I could look it up on Wikipedia-
Merri
I remember learning it in school and literally zoning out and everyone talking about it and like, I zoned out. That’s a weird memory to have, but like, I know it’s something with the ground-
Missy
It’s positive-negative charges, etc, etc, I don’t know.
Merri
It really is just- it’s just-, it’s all a big conspiracy.
Missy
So we like to think that because we have scientific answers or other forms of answers that we are beyond the need for mythology, but in fact, we believe all kinds of things simply because they are taught to us by our culture. That includes things that seem at odds, like, if we take something as seemingly binary as being a Democrat or Republican, that A) doesn’t seem like mythology, because it’s a real thing we deal with, right? And B) it seems like a natural state of the world. But why don’t we have a third option?
Merri
We have independent.
Missy
We do, and they’re not considered viable. Whereas in most other countries in the world, you can have lots of political parties.
Merri
Yeah, I think for Independants, if they win, like two states next time they get a bonus or something-
Missy
Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know exactly how it works.
Merri
Something weird like that. Like, they almost tried.
Missy
Yeah. So like, we all in the US- we often think of the political system as a binary of two parties. It’s either Republican or Democrat. I come upon this a lot when I’m taking political surveys.
Merri
Yeah.
Missy
And they’re like, Are you a Democrat? Or a Republican? And I’m like-
Merri
Neither?
Missy
I don’t know how to answer that question, buddy.
Merri
My family has a hard time understanding that- my dad’s side of the family has a hard time understanding that like, Democrat is something different. And liberal, and left.
Missy
Yeah. So you know, why those two at all? Why does this binary exist? And what does it say about our culture that so many of us do not question it. And the thing to understand here is, this is just one example of a thing we take as natural in our society, when in fact, it’s not natural at all. It has nothing to do with nature. It’s just the way that we’ve organized the world. And when we understand that that’s fake, we are able to push back against it. And of course, this is an entirely different reading. That’s enough of mythology for now. There is the biblical reading here, right? Neo is a great Savior of Zion, a Hebrew word often used to refer to Jerusalem as well as the land of Israel. He dies and is resurrected proving his divinity. You can even view the three main characters Morpheus, Neo, and Trinity (HA) as the Holy Trinity- with Morpheus as the Father, Neo as the Son and Trinity as the Holy Ghost. I didn’t dive too deep into that, because honestly, I feel like that was so obvious. You don’t need me to explain it to you.
Merri
It would have been a lot more interesting if they connected it to much more ancient religions where they were like- this is what I find interesting a lot of the Christian- things that happened in the Bible also happened 1000s of years before, so I thought it would have been really interesting if they connected to that. Where it feels like it’s biblical, but when you really look into it, it’s not. I think that would have been really interesting just from my nerd history of religion point of view.
Missy
Yeah, well, I mean, there’s- the referencing- the Nebuchadnezzar, the ship- that’s referencing a king of the Neo-Babylonian Empire from long before Christ, like 600 years before. So there is kind of this invocation of history as well, and things that came before, but it- is does feel very Jesus, very Jesus resurrection to me. These references are intentionally imparting the film with meaning by situating it in conversations with both biblical work and broader history and mythology and all those kinds of things. Whether it actually obtained that status, like the idea of being in conversation with those things, and being considered along those kinds of things- it’s not really up to the Wachowskis. But it’s clear that they were trying to talk about myth and myth-making and situate their story as part of that. It’s not just a story about these three people doing something, right? It’s a story in the vein of myth and the Bible.
Merri
They’re creating a myth for future generations.
Missy
Right, in the same way that if I talk about Artemis, then you’re going to- you know, know what I mean. They want me to be able to talk about Neo in the same way.
Merri
Or even just like the founding fathers.
Missy
Right. Yeah, they’ve become mythical figures.
Merri
Which they’re not.
Missy
Yeah, any thoughts on that section?
Merri
No, it’s all good. I love it.
Missy
Okay, well, I hope you’re ready for Baudrillard, because it’s time.
Merri
Here we go!
Missy
So let’s-
Merri
-Baudrillard time!
Missy
-let’s talk about Simulacra and Simulation. This is a 1981 book by John Baudrillard about the relationship between symbols, reality, and society and how they contribute to the idea of shared existence. So here’s a couple of definitions for you. Simulacra: a simulacra is a copy that depicts things that have no original, or that no longer have an original. Such as, photoshopped images of celebrities. There’s an original celebrity, right, but the goal of Photoshop is to depict an idealized version of the celebrity that does not exist.
Merri
Hmm.
Missy
Disneyland, Disneyland depicts things that do not exist, but evokes a feeling that they might have once.
Merri
Yes.
Missy
The perfect example of this is the Main Street.
Merri
Oh yeah.
Missy
Where is that? Nowhere. It’s not-
Merri
-Main Street USA.
Missy
-It’s not real. It’s depicting, at once, this idealized version of every downtown in small town America.
Merri
Yeah.
Missy
But it’s not real. Right? It’s not it’s not a real town. It’s not depicting a real place. It is an imagined- it is a depiction of imagination. Hatsune Miku, an idealized person, right? Doesn’t exist. Reality TV, right? It’s not real, but it is attempting to depict the real, while also not being real. It’s nonsense. Expensive jeans that come with holes in them. Why? That’s simulacra. It’s trying to capture- it’s trying to evoke the feeling of a well-loved pair of jeans-
Merri
-Without being well loved.
Missy
-without being a well loved pair of jeans. It is an imitation, that’s simulacra. Simulation is the imitation of the operation of a real world process or system over time.
Merri
Is that an NFT?
Missy
No, such as, again Disneyland. It is trying to simulate the real world over time, but it is also not doing that.
Merri
They pump in smells and everything.
Missy
Right. The experience of Disneyland is a simulation. Products and recipes said to evoke mother or grandmother’s cooking, right? The idea of “mother’s cookies.” Those aren’t mother’s cookies, my mom doesn’t even like bake cookies, ever.
Merri
My mom gets Tollhouse-
Missy
-Yeah
Merri
-Cuts it up.
Missy
But, what it’s invoking there is the idea of caring, and the love that is put into food.
Merri
Food tastes better when there’s love baked into it.
Missy
Exactly, at the “mother’s cookies” factory. Placebos-
Merri
-and that is capitalism!
Missy
-placebos in medicine. That’s a weird example, but it’s a simulation. It’s a fake version of medicine that may or may not have an effect, etc.
Merri
You’re mind might believe it.
Missy
Exactly. The argument that Baudrillard makes is that humanity has replaced anything real with simulacra and simulations, and that we no longer live in reality, but a simulation of it. And he refers to this as “hyperreality.” To Baudrillard, that means that our lives are so saturated with imitation through simulacra and simulation, that meaning no longer exists- everything is mutable and false, and therefore meaningless.
Merri
Hate it.
Missy
I was thinking about this. And I was like looking out my window, trying to say- trying to think about if I could think of any exceptions, and I was looking out my window, and there’s a bunch of trees out there. And I was like, well, trees real, right?
Merri
But it was planted there.
Missy
That’s what I was- I was looking out my back window, toward the green belt. And I was like, oh, it’s like a forest out there. And I’m like, it’s like a forest out there. It’s cultivated, they’ve put it up so that I can’t hear the highway as loudly outside my house. So even what I think of as a forest, is in fact not a forest, it is a simulation.
Merri
Maybe if you go to like Montana-
Missy
Yeah, there are some places, but for the most part the things that we interact with on a daily basis are imitations- they are not real. Even this podcast is not real! I script this podcast.
Merri
Like word for word.
Missy
I didn’t script that part. Not now, but- but a lot of times this podcast is scripted. Because I would lose my sanity if I tried to remember all this about Baudrillard.
Merri
Oh god.
Missy
So, what he’s saying again here is that meaning no longer exists. Everything is mutable and false, therefore, it’s meaningless. Baudrillard is also building on the work of the semioticians like Ferdinand de Saussure and Jacques Derrida. Semiotics is where we get the idea of signs and signifiers, which we’ve talked about in the past, which also deals with the intrinsic meaning (or lack thereof) of things. Do you remember that conversation? Or should I explain it really briefly?
Merri
Explain it again.
Missy
So language is comprised of signs and signifiers. Or- signifies, sorry, I got confused. The- God, it gets- it’s hard. It’s hard to explain. Any word is only a representation of the thing.
Merri
Okay, okay. Yeah, yeah I remember.
Missy
A cat. The word cat is not a cat. Right?
Merri
But cat is- cat is the symbol of the cat.
Missy
Yeah, cat is the symbol of an abstract cat, the cat I picture when I say cat is different from the cat you picture when I say cat. That’s- that is the most surface level semiotics possible. The point of all of this is that we should- we are essentially being fed ideas about concepts like happiness, personhood, and so on that are not “real,” because they are imitations of something else, and we grow increasingly detached from reality the longer that we stay in this state. In the metaphor of The Matrix, “taking the red pill” is a means of seeing the fact that what you saw as real is in fact, a simulation- in a very literal sense in the movie, right? Much like learning about this theory, and really spending some time with it. Because like, if you think about this for the first time, it’s like woof!
Merri
Scary, yeah!
Missy
I didn’t want to know that! Let me go back. Once you learn this, you can’t unlearn it, and it changes the way you look at things, right? You aren’t necessarily happier for knowing it. But you are living a more informed and potentially free life with that knowledge in your mind.
Merri
I feel like when I was younger, that “I want to be free!” would have been really important to me and now with the state of the world, I’m like- I’d rather like-
Missy
-Lemme eat that steak, baby!
Merri
Yeah, let me eat that steak. Cause you know what? This even simulated reality sucks! So, I don’t want to get worse!
Missy
So, this is a quote from “Re-Writing ‘Reality’: Reading ‘The Matrix'” by Russell J.A. Kilbourne, who writes, “Therefore, to see the code streaming down the monitor screen, as Neo does immediately following his liberation, is to be aware at least of the ‘constructiveness’ of the construct- infinitely more desirable than the state of ignorant bliss in which the average denizen of the Matrix lives. And to see the code- as Cypher can- as the images encodes (“blonde, brunette, redhead…”), is to occupy an already demystified position: Cypher ‘de-ciphers’ the code. But the real trick which only Neos ever masters, thereby realizing his potential as ‘the One,’ is to turn the whole structure inside out and see the code as code from within the Matrix itself. In this sense, then, Neo’s trajectory is not simply from subject of experience to subject of knowledge- combined-with-belief-in-self. It is also a movement from subject,” ah, sorry scrolled up and got confused. “It is also a movement from subject of narration-as-reader to narrating subject in a way none of the other characters can match. This is why at the film’s end Neo becomes the film’s narrator, addressing the AI nemesis in a taunting phone call from a pay phone inside the Matrix.”
So, what makes Neo special is not just the prophecy about him as the One but also his ability to see the code from within the Matrix. The other people are aware that it’s there, right? They’re aware of it, they’re able to manipulate it, but it’s Neo who is able to see it and interact with it and use it against the Matrix itself. I don’t know that the film gives us an explanation for why he has this unique power until the second movie, where we find out that he’s part of this cycle of Ones. I’m a little unsure as to whether that means he is created by the Matrix or just like, guided by the simulation, but whatever, it really doesn’t matter. Even if he is influenced by the Matrix, we know that he’s a person who questions reality already- he says as much in the movie, but he’s also seen literally with Simulacra and Simulation by Baudrillard. He’s literally holding that book.
Merri
Again, they’re like, this is what it is guys.
Missy
Yeah. Neo is obviously interested in seeing through the veneer of reality, which I think makes him more suited to be the person who not only sees the Matrix for what it is (a simulation), but is ultimately able to manipulate that. And he’s a hacker, right? He knows that code can be manipulated, even within his false life within the Matrix, the simulation, he’s aware that code can be turned around. In a funny way, it actually reminded me of that part in John Constantine: Hellblazer, where Constantine chides K-Mag for thinking small when he uses the intestines to view events happening elsewhere. And he just takes over and uses the same intestines to re-write what’s happening. He’s like, if you can look, why can’t you just change it? And it reminds me a lot of that actually. There were a lot of weird parallels with- not Hellblazer specifically- but with Constantine the movie and not just because Keanu Reeves is in both of them.
Merri
Interesting, what came out first?
Missy
The Matrix would’ve come out first. But like the idea- like, it’s kind of a reversal. The idea of every- part of the movie of Constantine is that- I think Gabriel says like almost exactly this. He has- he believes, he doesn’t have faith- two different things. He believes in religion, he doesn’t have faith, whereas most other characters have faith. Similarly, in this movie, he derives- he derives power from knowing, whereas everybody else merely has faith.
Merri
Interesting.
Missy
So yeah, anyway, that brings me to the next section, which is about nihilism. The chapter that Neo hides stuff in, because that’s how we are introduced to the “Simulacra and Simulation” copy is… they bring him a disk or something? I can’t remember what it was.
Merri
Some old discs.
Missy
Yeah, he takes it and he hides it in his copy of Simulacra and Simulation, and the chapter he hides it in is the final chapter of the book by Baudrillard, which is titled “On Nihilism.” A lot of times, we want answers or guidance from philosophy, right? We want these things to help us live better, more informed, more authentic lives.
Merri
Answers.
Missy
Yeah, we want- we want an answer. But to my understanding, which is admittedly shallow, and based on Reddit threads and Wikipedia- I’m a busy girl, folks! I can’t read every text. Baudrillard was actually not asking us to do anything with this information. In fact, Simulacra and Simulation ends with this chapter titled “On Nihilism,” which is in fact, the chapter that Neo hides the data disc in. So nihilism, philosophically speaking, is belief- it feels oxymoronic, but we’re gonna go with belief because this is the best one I can think of. So nihilism is the “belief” that nothing has meaning, that the truth is unknowable, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Essentially, it’s acceptance that, you know, we don’t know and we can’t know.
Merri
Like, philosophical pessimism.
Missy
It doesn’t have to be pessimistic, is the thing though. Remember that graphic I posted- I posted a graphic in the Discord as I was doing some research for this episode, it was titled “Nihilism.” And it was, “Expectation” and it was somebody looking very sad and saying nothing has meaning. And then the second part was somebody with sunglasses on against like a radical background. Presumbly- they- they weren’t doing finger guns, but like, spiritually, they were doing finger guns saying, “Nothing matters!”
Baudrillard identifies himself and the systems he’s discussing as nihilistic. He believes there is no meaning, the systems believe there is no meaning, and he suggests that the only response to systemic nihilism is violence and derision. So we should effectively say, “Fuck all that!” and be mad about it. However-
Merri
Easy is easy, I’m always mad!
Missy
However, Baudrillard also seems resigned to the fact that these systems aren’t going anywhere, but that the lack of hope that we’ll ever get out of it is a good thing. Like-
Merri
Cause nothing matters!
Missy
Yeah! Shout out to a Reddit thread by a deleted user on the Critical Theory subreddit for explaining this in a way that I could actually understand and extra shout out to Reddit user kinderdemon who really hit it home with this comment. This is how it made sense to me. And I’ll link to this in the show notes if you want to read the whole discussion. But Reddit user kinderdemon said, “You can fight for positive change because you hate the world as it is, not because you believe in a better one. You can ‘eat the rich’ because you are hungry, not because God or morality approves of it, and they can’t call you a bad person if you do.” So it’s the setting-aside of meaning, or morality or whatever, and an understanding that like, you can fight for positive change because you hate the world as it is not because you necessarily believe that it’s going to do anything.
Merri
Yeah, and that kind of sums up his feeling on nihilism?
Missy
I think so, as far as I understand it, yes. I have no idea. Like, I’m not sure if this user is right, if this is a clear interpretation of what Baudrillard is saying, but it does make sense to me as an interpretation of that. If nothing has meaning, then there is no morality or “correct” way of living, therefore we can reject those ideas entirely and say “I’m doing this because I want to, or because it is important to me,” rather than because some outside force of morality or god or justice or whatever says that I should.
Merri
I think that’s becoming much more popular. I think especially with the pandemic, people are choosing, “No, this makes me happy… and so fuck you, I quit.”
Missy
Yeah, then, of course this can- this has benefits and drawbacks, like there are some people who want to indulge things I super don’t want them to indulge.
Merri
This is true.
Missy
You know, but at the same time, I don’t think that Baudrillard is advocating for like, utter and complete chaos. I don’t- I don’t think that. And I don’t really think- I don’t know that he’s advocating for anything really. I don’t want to put words in his mouth. But-
Merri
Well, if he’s advocating, then he’s just making a simulation. And that’s not… well I guess he doesn’t say that’s not good.
Missy
No, he- very decidedly- he doesn’t say a lot. He brings a lot of- he brings our attention to a lot of things, but doesn’t necessarily say whether these things are… Well, he doesn’t like the world that we live in. I think we can say that pretty clearly. He does not like it. But he does not think overthrow is possible.
Merri
I think that- I feel like that way with a lot of philosophers are not, like you said, giving answers, but they’re just like trying to explain the way in which the world works, but doesn’t necessarily mean that’s the way it works. You know, does that make sense?
Missy
I think- yeah. Well, I think a lot of times the goal of philosophy is not to explain something, but to make us ask questions.
Merri
Yeah.
Missy
And to think about things. And I think that that’s what this movie does, right? It encourages us to ask these questions. So, we’ve established what nihilism is. And the question for me becomes, “Is Neo rejecting the idea of nihilism?” Baudrillard actually- he didn’t like the movie as an interpretation of his work. He said it was a misrepresentation, even though the Wachowskis actually invited him to work on this.
Merri
I wanna know what-
Missy
-he said, no-
Merri
-what he decided wasn’t like, I’m not saying he’s wrong, but I would be curious to see what he was like, “That’s wrong.”
Missy
Well, I have- I have a potential answer for you.
Merri
Okay.
Missy
So my question is, is Neo rejecting the idea of nihilism? Because I think that-
Merri
Oh I see.
Missy
-I don’t think it was clear from the interview I read with Baudrillard about this that like- it was the nihilism part that he felt they misrepresented, but Neo did cut a hole in that section of the book to hide stuff in it, right? Like that was the section that he chose to destroy, to hide stuff in. And I think-
Merri
Okay, okay!
Missy
-I think the idea that the movie misunderstands Baudrillard’s philosophy, according to Baudrillard, is true. Like, I think that that is true. But I also wonder whether it is to some degree rejecting the conclusion that nihilism is maybe not the answer, because I think Baudrillard is kind of avoiding suggesting that there is an answer. But maybe the idea that nihilism is the endpoint or end goal of this kind of thinking, I think that might be something that the movie is rejecting.
Merri
I think so, because if nothing mattered then what’s it matter if they’re in the Matrix, right? What’s the point of, you know, “taking the red pill,” when it doesn’t matter in the end anyways?
Missy
Mhmm. I think- well, I think that nihilism, like, as Baudrillard is discussing it- you still want to know. He’s not advocating for ignorance. He thinks that you should know that we exist in a world of simulacra and simulation. So that would mean, take the red pill. But he’s saying that you can’t escape it. And if that interpretation that I read on Reddit is correct, that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t fight it, it just means that there is no escape. There is no way out. And I think that the Wachowskis are rejecting the idea that there is no way out. I think they are saying there IS a way out.
Merri
Okay, okay.
Missy
You know, so then again, apparently the Wachowskis actually asked Baudrillard to participate in the later movies, and he said no. So I’m not sure, right? Because if they were rejecting, you know, the endpoint of his philosophy, why would they ask him to participate in the movie? But-
Merri
-Maybe they weren’t, like, maybe they were pulling the card out of his book, meaning, like, I don’t really… maybe?
Missy
Yeah, it’s hard to say-
Merri
Do what you want with it!
Missy
But it does feel very much to me like the movies are rejecting nihilism, especially when you get into The Matrix Reloaded and you have the man who looks a lot like Colonel Sanders saying something like that hope is a foolish human desire, and this is a direct quote from Baudrillard. So the guy in the movie says hope is a foolish human desire, something like that, and Baudrillard wrote, “There is no more hope for meaning. And without a doubt, this is a good thing, meaning is mortal. Appearances, they are immortal, invulnerable, to the nihilism, that is where seduction begins.” There’s almost like a conscious parallel there, I think between- not necessarily like derision of meaning, but like, you’re looking for meaning and there’s no point. Like what is the point of looking for meaning? It doesn’t matter.
Merri
So like it’s more important to live, to experience the life that you’re living.
Missy
Yeah. Or just to be conscious of the fact that it’s a simulation. To be conscious of, you know, all of these lies that you’re being fed and to do with that information what you will.
Merri
Well can you find a real meaning of life if you’re being fed fake shit?
Missy
Right? That is the question.
Merri
That’s the real question!
Missy
That’s the real question. So I don’t know. You know, I do feel like the Wachoswkis tend toward hopeful narratives generally speaking, looking at Sense8. They didn’t do- they didn’t do the movie, but they worked on I think the screenplay and they produced V for Vendetta, which is a more, I think, hopeful interpretation of the story than the original comic. So I do feel like the Wachowskis tend toward these hopeful narratives overall, right? I feel like it’d be out of character for the Wachowskis to make something really nihilistic?
Merri
Yeah, I would agree, especially after Sense8.
Missy
Yeah. And I think it really does make sense for them to reject the idea of nihilism, and to suggest that there are other ways of being in the world, that there are other ways out of the systems that bind us, etc. Especially when you consider the fact that they’re trans. And I’m not going to talk too much about that, in this episode, I’ll discuss it just a little bit later on. But like, the idea of trans-ness, not just in terms of being transgender, the idea of like transhumanism, or those various, you know, other forms of, of transcendence, right? It makes sense to me that they would be interested in the idea of transcendence and being transgender- I mean, obviously, they’re transgender- and transhumanism, because like, those are ways out of binaries that we are trapped in. It tracks to me that they would say, “Actually, fuck nihilism, we’re going to do it a different way.” So you know, it’s possible that they were arguing like, “Actually, fuck nihilism, there’s a way- there’s a better way.” Or maybe they just really did misunderstand Baudrillard. But I even think misunderstanding can lead to interesting ideas. So I really don’t care whether they got it wrong, right? They’re still very deliberate in their interpretation. If it’s- you know, one of the greatest lessons I ever learned in an English class was when it was finally revealed to me that like, the way that I interpret poetry is not necessarily wrong. It’s just different. And I can, you know, get something interesting out of it, even if I interpret it wrong.
Merri
I think that’s one of the biggest life lessons of our podcast, because often we’re like, “We don’t give a shit. What that- with what the writer meant, doesn’t matter!” So-
Missy
That’s Barthes.
Merri
It’s freeing!
Missy
That’s Roland Barthes baby. This is a quote from “Back to the Future: The Humanist ‘Matrix.'” which is by Laura Bartlett and Thomas B. Byers. And this is going to be one where I’m going to read the quote to you and I’m going to have to break down like every single word in it to make sense.
Merri
Yeah, it’s one of the hard ones!
Missy
So buckle up!
“Finally, however, the terms of opposition on which the film is structured are neither capitalist ideology versus scientific socialism nor Marxist humanism versus postmodern cyborg socialism. Rather, it boils down to a struggle between human beings and machines over human subjectivity. That the AI prevails only by virtue of its capacity to separate consciousness from the materiality of the body suggests that in this world human enslavement occurs only when, and by virtue of the fact that, subjectivity is configured as posthuman. In order to exploit the body, the AI must create a simulacrum in which the human mind can interact and in which it is duped into believing that it was still inhabits and senses bodily reality. But the fact that the mind must be so engaged for the system to work suggests that human beings have the potential to regain an ‘outside’ position with relation to the Matrix- to recognize the constructedness of their reality and change it. Thus, the film suggests the ultimate autonomy and supremacy of human consciousness, intimating that the artificial system is still essentially allopoietic,” allopoietic- I think is how I looked up how it was said, “or subservient to a humanity that remains in essence (if not in its existence at this historical moment) autopoietic.”
Woof! So let’s break that down, so we can understand what Bartlett and Byers are talking about here. So human subjectivity, the state of being an individual person with thoughts and beliefs. Are the people of the Matrix subjects before they are unplugged? Interesting question, are they?
Merri
I don’t think we can know because I don’t think we can know how much real control they have over themselves, right?
Missy
They have- so they have free will within the confines of the Matrix, right? They’re presented with scenarios, and so on and so forth. They have the will to choose because when they presented them with a world that was just pleasurable, they rejected it. The hu-like humans desired choice, but choice is also what causes- always results in the destruction of the Matrix and the needing for it to be rebooted. So choice is important in order to construct a believable reality, but it also eventually causes the downfall of the Matrix. So Bartlett and Byer argue that the film is really about humans and machines fighting over the state of being human. I think we can get on board with that.
Merri
Yeah.
Missy
So post-human is the state of existing beyond being human. So things like cyborgs, you know, body augmentation, AI, right? Not AI as we know it today, like Siri in your phone who doesn’t really learn anything-
Merri
-She’s really bad at her job.
Missy
Truly. But- advanced AI, like the kind that we see in the film where they-
Merri
-are doing jobs?
Missy
Not just that, because you can program a robot to do a job.
Merri
Oh, like when it decides to kill someone?
Missy
When it- when it seems to have a consciousness of its own, a subjectivity of its own.
Merri
It’s the one guy who’s like, “Don’t- don’t let your AI do this, or that’s gonna happen.”
Missy
Yeah.
Merri
What’s his name?
Missy
Are you thinking of Asimov?
Merri
Yeah.
Missy
Bartlett and Byer argue that because the AI in the machines can separate their human consciousness (the thing that makes them subjects) from their body, the film suggests that human enslavement happens when subjectivity is seen as posthuman. Or: we are not free when our subjectivity is based on being separate from the body. So, the thing that it’s saying there is that humanity is rooted in the body. If you take the humanity out of body, the consciousness or whatever, you’ve caused a problem, with the humanity.
Merri
It’s a soul.
Missy
It’s a soul, but it’s also not a soul. A soul is a way to think about it. But it’s not- human subjectivity does not necessarily exist after death in the way that the implication of a soul does. It’s like, everything that we- I think we had this- we did that philosophical experiment, maybe for the Good Place episode, where it was like, “If all of my body is destructed down to atoms and then reconstituted on another planet, am I still me?”
Merri
I thought about that a lot while reading through the outline.
Missy
Yeah.
Merri
Because I still believe that it’s not.
Missy
Yeah, it’s complicated.
Merri
Yeah.
Missy
So, Bartlett and Byer arguing that- again, just to reiterate, here, we are not free when our subjectivity is based on being separate from the body, which is what’s happening in the Matrix, right? They are- they are not connected to their- well they are connected to their bodies, but their consciousness is being projected into a different place.
Merri
Is it- so it’s the being separated?
Missy
Yes.
Merri
You’re separating from your other half?
Missy
Sort of? Yeah.
Merri
Okay. And you have to have the two.
Missy
Yes, they are meant to be together. This actually puts the infamous Matrix: Reloaded orgy in a new light, to me.
Merri
I love this part.
Missy
It’s not gratuitous sex. It’s showing the people of Zion thriving in their human bodies, rejoicing in the union of their consciousness with their body, which had previously been denied to them, right? They only felt- they’d only felt simulations of pleasure, they had not felt actual bodily pleasure, because they had never engaged with another person with their real body. That’s freedom in the eyes of the movies- not sex, necessarily, but the connection between personhood and the body. And that’s what’s expressed in that scene. Like yeah, it’s kind of weird, but like this- it’s this very, like joyous moment of dancing and sweating and touching people-
Merri
We know the Wachowskis love that.
Missy
They do. And you know what, who can blame them? Lke this- I think it’s a really wonderful scene, even as I’m kind of like, “Okay…” but like, I love the fact that they’re rejoicing by making music and touching each other and being very present in their physical bodies, because that’s not something that they have had access to.
Merri
Yeah, I would agree. Totally puts it in a new light. It just feels very… like, almost rebellious.
Missy
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think it’s easy to look at that kind of scene and be like, “Ew, gross,” but also like, I mean, it’s very human to want to dance and touch other people. And sex is sometimes an extension of that. And it’s also okay just to have a horny scene, you know?
Merri
Just a horndog scene.
Missy
It didn’t- it didn’t do it for me!
Merri
No, especially with like intertwined with Neo and Trinity having sex. I’m like, this is awful. I’ve never seen two people have sex. That’s the- this is the least sexy thing I’ve ever seen. Pulls you right out.
Missy
Yeah. But the scene of everybody dancing and that kind of thing, I was like, okay, you know this- it’s kind of a weird expression of it, but I like it. Now we’ll talk about allo and autopoietic. Allo means different, auto means the same. And poietic means the creation of. So an alllopoietic system creates something other than itself. You can think of an assembly line, right? People working on an assembly line putting together a car, for example. That would be allopoietic. And an autopoietic system creates the same thing as itself, such as biological cell reproduction. When it reproduces, it recreates itself.
Merri
Like clones.
Missy
Yeah, well, clones generally don’t clone themselves.
Merri
Until they get really smart.
Missy
Until they get really smart. So Bartlett and Byer are saying that the film suggests that human consciousness is the ideal because it creates itself, even if that isn’t true at the very moment of the movie, because the machines handle breeding for humans. More broadly, I think what they’re arguing through a variety of different means is that humanity and all of its facets are at the center of the film, not the question of “what it means to be human,” which is what we often see in stories about humans and AI. In the his case, the film was not really interested at all in the AI, and is interested in freedom and in truth.
Merri
Which is why I liked The Animatrix. Because I AM interested in in the machines, like I am interested in their story and how they got there because their freedom is just as important, isn’t it? So, I mean-
Missy
I think The Animatrix was really, really effective at introducing the like, “Humans fucked up. Humans did bad things.” And I think that was something that was missing from the narrative of the first movie. But the question of “how did we get here?” And it makes it more interesting to look at both the first movie and the second, and Reloaded and say, okay, there’s an element here of like, the machines are wrong for doing this. But also, is the way we treated them post-this, or pre-this apocalypse any better? We were essentially treating THEM as slaves for our amusement and that kind of thing. So like, is it? Is it really better?
Merri
Yeah, anytime they talk- and this is what I like about older movie- or the newer movies, like when they talk about the experience of the machines, I think it’s so interesting! Because as you watch it in the first one, it really does feel like nothing matters, because what are they doing? Nothing. They’re just farming humans and like, what’s the point? You don’t see any… what makes, I guess you could say, like, humanity, you could say or like what-
Missy
The personhood?
Merri
Yeah, what is their pleasure besides, you know, charging up?
Missy
I mean, is existence itself not a reason to exist?
Merri
I don’t know. It feels like it with those machines.
Missy
Well I mean, most things on Earth are interested in continuing their existence whether or not we can say they’re sentient, look at a virus, like does a virus experience pleasure?
Merri
But the- is a virus… sentient?
Missy
What a question. That’s a real fucking question in science Merri!
Merri
Okay. Okay. Okay.
Missy
But that’s the point! Like, I don’t think that- I think that the general agreement is that a virus is not quite sentient, but a virus has… we can’t say it’s a desire. A virus has an imperative to replicate itself, right? Is that not enough?
Merri
I guess I don’t know if it’s… I just feel like when you add The Animatrix in there, and you see that there’s a deliberate rebellion, it makes me watch the first one, and like the way in which the machines live their, quote, unquote, life, feel very different. Like they’ve almost gotten away from that.
Missy
Well, okay, so this is- this is the question that I’m getting at with this idea of like, do they need- do they need a reason to stay alive? Is like, almost every creature on this planet does not have- its main purpose on earth is to replicate itself.
Merri
I understand that. I totally, I totally agree with you. I think the the difference is I’m saying it makes it not as interesting to me.
Missy
Sure.
Merri
Yeah. But I agree. I agree with what you’re saying. I like The Animatrix because it did give me that context.
Missy
So you would not find it interesting. Like, does machine life have sanctity? If its purpose is to replicate itself?
Merri
I don’t- I don’t know.
Missy
That’s what I’m getting at.
Merri
I don’t think so.
Missy
You don’t think so?
Merri
I just… like the act of seeking out something pleasurable-
Missy
-What about animals?
Merri
Animals seek out things that are pleasurable.
Missy
They do, but their primary drive is replication.
Merri
Are they sentient, though?
Missy
Animals?
Merri
I mean, they teach like- there’s like that study where they teach the gorillas to speak. But when they actually try to make them make a sentence, they don’t actually make a sentence. They’re not making real words-
Missy
We might be- we might be in disagreement about the definition of- I think we’re actually looking at sapience rather than sentience… Are animals sentient? Okay, so many animals are sentient, which means that they have the capacity to experience positive and negative feelings.
Merri
Okay okay, I would agree with that.
Missy
[Googling] Are… animals… sapient? Humans are sapient, hence homo sapiens. There are animals that are sentient and sapient.
Merri
So what is the definition of sapient?
Missy
They have some kind of intellectual capacity for understanding, thinking, reasoning and knowing. Is it going to give me examples? Probably not. Humans, whales and dolphins.
Merri
I would’ve expected dolphins. This is-
Missy
Parrots, crows, dogs-
Merri
-real deep in my head. I guess, the thing is like it- it’d be really interesting if there was an animal uprising, you know? And I think-
Missy
That’s- that’s something I didn’t get into this outline, but maybe will for the next- is the idea of factory farming.
Merri
Yeah. So, I think that’s like- that, for me is why The Animatrix was really interesting, because it gave me something to hold on to and connect with. Whereas just the machines running through their daily life being machines, I didn’t connect with that. And so I was forced to connect with the other side like Neo, and I don’t connect with that either.
Missy
I think so- this is my thing. I think the movie would have been really interesting if it did go out of its way to make us connect with non sapient machines.
Merri
It does later.
Missy
With non sapient ones?
Merri
Oh, I guess not. I don’t know. I like- the last one I think there’s an attempt. But I think that they’re sapient.
Missy
We’ll have to get there.
Merri
Yeah, anyways. It’s just- it was an interesting thing as I’m watching it, I watched The Animatrix and the ones that I connected most with were the- I mean, I love a good uprising and rebellion! You know, they just destroy those people and the cats. There were so many cats in The Animatrix.
Missy
There were.
Merri
I think there was one in every single one.
Missy
Oh, really?
Merri
Or not? Maybe not. There was an animal, I think, in every single one, because there was one, the one that I really liked had that weird monkey thing.
Missy
Yes.
Merri
I didn’t like that.
Missy
You didn’t like the weird monkey thing? I think it was like a sloth or like a bush baby-
Merri
I think it’s bush baby.
Missy
Interesting.
Merri
Not into it.
Missy
Do you have anything else to say about whatever we were just talking about?
Merri
It’s a lot. I’m like- it’s one of those things. I’m still thinking about it. And that’s what makes the movie-
Missy
Yeah-
Merri
-good. I wouldn’t say like, it’s a good movie, but that’s what makes it… good for society?
Missy
I think it’s a pretty good movie. I don’t like it. But I think- it’s I think it’s pretty good.
Merri
I don’t know.
Missy
I think it’s- I think it sets out to achieve goals. And it largely achieves those goals. It does it in a unique style.
Merri
I guess if you’re doing like, a logical, “this is what makes a good movie,” as opposed to me being like, “I think this is a good movie,” then, yeah, I can agree with that.
Missy
I don’t- I don’t really like it. I like- I just-
Merri
Well you can dislike good things.
Missy
Yeah! And that’s how I feel about it. So I’m like, I think this is a pretty good movie that just doesn’t do it for me.
Let’s talk about determinism and free will. So free will is a theme throughout the series so far, but it really comes to the forefront in The Matrix Reloaded, especially in Neo’s conversations with the with the Oracle. And I can’t remember if they discussed the idea of free will outright, they probably do. I just forgot for some reason. But there are a couple of layers compounding the idea of freewill within the movie.
Merri
They do-
Missy
-They probably do. One, within the Matrix, they definitely aren’t free because they don’t even know that they’re not living in the real world, right? Like, can you be considered free if you have no idea that you are living in a simulation? The movie seems to be saying no-
Merri
Yeah.
Missy
They have choice within the confines of that world. But because they don’t know that it’s a simulation, they cannot make informed choices. To reiterate, that mirrors the experience of living in our world without realizing how much of it is constructed, right? Two, even when you take the red pill and you learn that the Matrix is a simulation, you still have to grapple with the existence of the Oracle, who can see the future. So if it’s possible to see the future, can there really be freedom? Do we have free will?
Merri
My note in here- I took it down, but it was the mind-blown emoji.
Missy
Yeah!
Merri
Just like, there’s too much going on here. It breaks my brain!
Missy
Yeah, it’s hard to think about. If the Oracle knows the vase is going to fall, does she cause the fall by mentioning it? Is she remarking on the single path Neo is going to take? Or is there only one possible path that Neo is capable of taking?
Merri
It’s- I mean, my first- my knee jerk reaction is that there is real choice, because there’s multiple “the Ones” because I guess he fucks up? I don’t know what you could say. But then it’s like, well, maybe he was supposed to?
Missy
Mhmm, it’s very complicated! The second question that we have there is one of determinism, a philosophical view that events are in some way predetermined. And that doesn’t mean like, explicitly outlined, it just means that in some way events are predetermined. That can mean the very extremist views of Calvinism that we discussed in our episode on The Witch, which is called active divine determinism- God actively shapes the destinies of all people, meaning that there is no free will and your destination in the afterlife is determined by God. That is like, pretty fucking extreme. As far as determinism goes. There are also less restrictive kinds of determinism that situate the present in the context of the past and future. So, the choices available to you now are dictated by all the choices that came before, or that the choices available to you are dictated by existing structures, etc. So, that’s still determinism. For me to say like, determinism isn’t real because I can choose if I’m going to have cereal or eggs for breakfast- like that still is relying on a past series of events that led to me having both cereal and eggs, but not French toast or waffles.
Merri
Which were the better choice.
Missy
Which were the better choice. I had eggs for breakfast, incidentally. Anyway, that is still determinism, right? The fact that the past has in some way dictated the choices available to me today.
Merri
This is scary.
Missy
Again, this is as true of the Matrix as it is of the real world. We like to think we have free will and that we’re not- and that we are the masters of our own destiny. But our choices are always limited by the context we live in, right? We don’t actually have complete and total free will. I want to live in a beautiful old Victorian home with an extensive garden. But, I am limited by the amount of money I make, which is determined as much by me taking a job with a particular salary as it is the salary the job is offering, which is dictated by the industry, the income of the specific business, I work for- the like, surrounding interpretation of what my job and labor are worth, right?
Merri
Generational wealth.
Missy
Yes, there’s, there’s like a ton of factors that contribute to this one single thing.
Merri
That’s why the American Dream is fake.
Missy
Yeah. Um, if I-
Merri
-We’re all in a simulation!
Missy
If I want to go live in the woods as a hermit, that is technically not legal, unless I own the land, right? If I want free health care, I cannot have it. I can choose between six different streaming services all owned by probably bad people who wouldn’t hesitate to sell their grandmother. So I have the illusion of choice, but it’s choices dictated by other people. I don’t have free will, right? I don’t have the will to just like, watch any show I want without choosing from these six services. We have choice, but only the choices given to us within the existing framework, which is really just the Matrix, right?
Merri
[Heavy sigh]
Missy
I hope the audio software keeps that big sigh.
Merri
I hope so.
Missy
Um, so this is a quote from “Back to the Future: The Humanist ‘Matrix'” by Lisa Bartlett, and- sorry, Laura Bartlett. I don’t know where I got Lisa- and Thomas B. Byers who write, “While the condition of life in the future is completely passive for all but the select few who have escaped the state of battery inflicted on them by the AI, the virtual world at least gives them the illusion of freedom of choice- if not a real resistant agency, then at least-” sorry, the text’s kind of small, “then at least some digital wiggle room. Sci-fi fans will recognize ‘matrix’ as William Gibson’s term for cyberspace, defined in Neuromancer as,” quote, “‘a consensual hallucination experienced daily by billions,'” unquote. “For Gibson, this ‘hallucination’ is merely a sensory and spatial representation of stores of information. In the film, however, the hallucination is thematized,” thematized? Whatever. “It is not only an electronic illusion, but also an ideological one. It is perhaps in pinpointing society’s need to buy into the illusion of free agency and individual autonomy that The Matrix is most disturbingly accurate. The Matrix metaphorizes our willingness to fantasize that the “freedom” rhetoric of e-capitalism accurately reflects our reality and our propensity to marvel at our technological innovations, even in the face of mass alienation and social malaise.”
So as Bartlett and Byers point out here, the shared hallucination in The Matrix is not just the simulation they exist in, but also the idea that they have free will and autonomy, right? Like it’s not- yes, they believe in the simulation, but they also believe they have free will, and they super don’t. They don’t, even if the world seems to contain a ton of choices, like, they still don’t have free will. And this is where some of my frustration in the response to the film comes from, because a lot of people took away from it, “Whoa, what if we’re living in a simulation?” from it, but like, we are!
Merri
So does that mean when we do VR, it’s really Inception.
Missy
It’s a simulation of a simulation
Merri
Inception!
Missy
The Matrix is probably not real, as such. I say probably because simulation theory is its own thing that I find extremely tedious, again, because it just feels like religion for tech bros. But it most certainly is real and that we, too, live in a world of simulations that benefits from our believing that we have free choice within it. It’s okay that we have a broken two-party system because we can always choose which party to vote for, right? It’s okay that our media is run by six distinct companies, because we can choose which of the six we want to watch (and all of that available programming, right?) We have access to the internet, with tons of information, so long as we pay large fees to one of a handful of companies that could provide access for free but choose not to! Right? Again, we have “free will,” quote, unquote, but it’s always limited by forces outside of our control.
Merri
I wish more people would understand this! So when people make decisions that are not necessarily great decisions, people are like, “Well, they have free well, they could-” but like, so many outside sources are affecting the choice. That is it!
Missy
There’s a reason that bribery and extortion- well, bribery is not necessarily a crime. But extortion is a crime, blackmail is a crime. Because like, it’s the illusion of choice. If I put a gun to your head, and I say, you have to watch Selling Sunset, and- you have the choice to say no, right?
Merri
You have the choice, but you’ll die.
Missy
You have a choice, so you have free will- No! You’re being threatened and coerced! Right? Like it’s not the same as free will.
Merri
It’s like when women stay with abusive partners.
Missy
Right, there’s so many factors there that go beyond-
Merri
“They have the- they have the free will to leave!”
Missy
Yeah, there’s so many factors that go into that besides just like, the single thing happening in a single moment. And this raises the question within The Matrix, and within our real world, of if there can be such a thing as free will at all, even once you take the red pill. And this is a philosophical question. And, as usual, in philosophy, there’s no clear answer. There are kind of two distinct camps: compatibilism, which believes that free will can work with determinism in some way or another, and incompatibilism- sure- which believes that it cannot. So within incompatibilism are three subsets- there’s hard incompatibilists, who believe that free will is incompatible with determinism and indeterminism.
Merri
That makes sense.
Missy
Libertarianists, who believe that determinism isn’t complete and free will might exist.
Merri
Okay.
Missy
And hard determinists, who believes determinism is complete and free will does not exist.
Merri
I hate that.
Missy
That would be I think, more in line with Calvinism.
Merri
Yeah.
Missy
Looking at The Matrix, we don’t yet have a clear answer (if there is one to be found). The Oracle really throws a wrench in the idea that the universe as a whole, not just the Matrix, might allow free will, right? Like, it’s hard to establish that free will can exist in the same world that the Oracle exists. It just doesn’t- at least for me-
Merri
Does not compute.
Missy
Does not compute. If she knows what’s going to happen, and sometimes speaks about it, doesn’t she potentially influenced the direction of events? If she can see the future, the future is in some way determined, even if nobody knows they’re on a specific path.
Merri
Aghhhhhhh!
Missy
Unless she’s lying. Or unless, as a program, she’s just very, very good at algorithmic predictions.
Merri
Possible…
Missy
Which is not impossible. We know she tells, or strongly hints, to Neo that he is not the One for XYZ reasons, but he just ends up being the One anyway. Right? So was she lying? Or did she not know? The latter means that she can likely affect the future the- sorry, the former means that she can likely affect the future- the latter means she’s not able to totally predict the future-
Merri
Or she was like, “you can’t know.” And that’s what makes you the One.
Missy
But that still means that SHE knew, which again, throws a wrench in the idea of free will.
Merri
Bring out that head-blown emoji!
Missy
Um, both are interesting interpretations. And the fact that we don’t know, at least at this point, makes this series’ stance on determinism and free will really debatable. And I like that.
Merri
Yeah, it kind of also- like it feels it. So when we started the discussion of, “nothing matters, that’s scary!” Now, when you bring this into it, nothing matters!
Missy
Nothing matters!
Merri
Feels freeing! Totally, totally!
Missy
Um, and I like this idea. I like the fact that we aren’t sure, like, does free will exist? I don’t know. I think that that is a much more interesting takeaway than, “But are we living in a computer simulation?”
Merri
But you have the free will to make that question.
Missy
Yeah. Exactly. Anything else to say about determinism?
Merri
It’s just- just I’m-
Missy
it’s gonna come back later.
Merri
It’s just a lot. And it’s one of those things where just like, you just go in a circle, and the circle closes in on itself every time you make a pass and- ahhhhhh-
Missy
Right. And eventually, you have to throw your hands up and go watch Selling Sunset.
Merri
Yeah, exactly. That’s your free will.
Missy
So the last section I have titled, “Things may have gotten out of hand, here.” I think what the Wachowskis set out to do with The Matrix is genuinely interesting and revolutionary. I genuinely believe that. And we’ll talk more about that, I think, in our next episode. But I do feel, too, like the shakeup these movies caused in the general cultural sphere is buckwild and not always in a good way?
Merri
Noooo!
Missy
Sometimes in a bad way? Sometimes in a very bad way? So naturally, we’re going to have to talk about what the red pill is and what “redpilling” has come to mean in a cultural context. In the movie, to take the red pill is to learn the truth you can’t unlearn. More specifically, it’s to learn that the world you know is a simulation and the real world is an extremely unfriendly and dangerous place, right? But as I’m sure we know, seeing the words “red pill” just out in the wild now mean something radically different. “The Red Pill-” and this is kind of what popularized a particular use of red pill. “The Red Pill” is a subreddit named after the pill in the movie and is, now at least, dedicated to what is generally seen as pick-up artists, and men’s rights activists, tactics, and causes, etc. I took a look at it while writing this and I fear for what it’s going to do to the Reddit emails I get. So again, I took a look at the at The Red Pill subreddit while watching- while writing this outline. And the top discussions as I was looking are “field reports” about how many girls a man has hooked up with using these tactics, another field report about having sex with somebody’s girlfriend, someone struggling with their friends with benefits having a boyfriend, etc. Apparently the community is now being subjected to more scrutiny on Reddit because I guess they’ve all kind of like packed up and left, so there’s a strong chance that the popular rhetoric was worse up until a few days before I was writing this outline. Like, literally six days before I wrote the outline they’re like, “we’re all picking up and leaving.” So-
Merri
Where’d they go?
Missy
To- they have a separate forum.
Merri
Oh okay.
Missy
Which isn’t subject to Reddit’s scrutiny.
Merri
It’s like an 8-chan?
Missy
I mean, it- it depends on how you look at it, because a lot of the appeal of the -chan sites is the depravity, whereas men’s rights activists and pickup artists- a lot of them- and I’ll get into this- like a lot of them are genuinely lonely people who are looking for camaraderie and connection and they’re finding it in you know, a cesspit. They found it in the sewer, unfortunately.
Okay, so this is the thing. It’s really tempting to just jump straight to demonizing men here, but I don’t want to do that. I think pickup-artists’ tactics are shameful, manipulative bullshit. But there’s a real culture of loneliness here and it looks like men are finding companionship by commiserating. I DO NOT like the tactics, to be clear. Nor do I like the ideology that comes out of these spaces. I want to make that-
Merri
BAD.
Missy
-I want to make that abundantly clear. I do not like it. I do not approve of it. It doesn’t – it does not meet with my standards. But, I feel uncomfortable pointing and laughing at men who struggle to find relationships because that’s exactly what leads them to these spaces.
Merri
Yeah.
Missy
Right? There is so much misogyny and hatred in this community. But the radicalization of men often stems from loneliness and disenfranchisement. So when we criticize these groups, I want it to be with the understanding that the groups exploit the effects that patriarchy has on men. Patriarchy causes this feeling of disenfranchisement, and like closed-off-ness, and that kind of thing. And then groups like this exploit that. And that doesn’t absolve men of responsibility, to be clear, but I want any conversation we have on this topic to amount to more than “lol men bad.”
Merri
Yeah.
Missy
Right? I don’t want to say that men are, by nature, emotionally stunted, or violent, or any of those things. That’s patriarchy talking, right? That’s a different form of red pill that like- that’s a difficult blue pill rather. So anyway, that disclaimer out of the way, The Red Pill community is built off of the idea that to take the red pill is to understand and accept that it is actually women who hold all the power in society and men are being crushed under their heel, unless they reclaim the sort of hypermasculine, take what you want mentality that men of previous generations had. This is a response to a wide variety of things- feminism, the #MeToo movement, women having more autonomy in general society, awareness about rape culture, a growing understanding of patriarchy, and how it affects us all, etc. It’s complex. It is not, when you really think about it a poor use of the term “red pill,” right? Considering that it is a revolutionary, earth-shaking, worldview shift. It’s just also not true. But how can you prove it when we live in a world of Baudrillard’s simulations? How can anyone be expected to not buy into some form of bullshit? We are all just buying into different forms of bullshit!
Merri
Nothing matters!
Missy
Yeah, nothing- nothing matters, [ 🙁 ] or nothing matters! [ 😀 ] I don’t believe- and this is what I want to make- one thing I want to make clear here. I don’t believe the Wachowskis are to blame for this adoption of the red pill. They did not invent misogyny and their movie does not indicate that the red pill is to show you how women run the world. But I think there is a failure on the part of the movies that we have seen so far, which is to take the message of the Matrix out of the film and into the real world.
Merri
I think also the movie hits a very specific demographic of dudes that are like-
Missy
Yes!
Merri
“Trinity is good- is a good female character, is a strong female character.”
Missy
I had to save this for the next episode. But yes, we will talk more about well- we’ll touch briefly on Neo here. But I do want to talk more about Neo as a savior and that kind of thing. And who identifies with Neo in the next episode.
Merri
Even the idea of like Trinity being a “good” female character or someone like, what’s-her-name from Alien? Like, these are some very-
Missy
Ripley.
Merri
-Yeah, very specific ways in which “strong females” should act.
Missy
Yeah.
Merri
I feel like its, “you’re not acting like this strong female character. See? I do like women, I like, ‘strong women,’ you are just a problem.”
Missy
Right. So yeah, it’s not so much- like I don’t think the Wachowskis are to blame in any sense for this. But I do feel like, had the movie maybe done more to take the Matrix out of The Matrix and into the real world that WE live in, you and I and everybody listening to this, that it may have been more effective. I am reluctant to lay the blame for that entirely at the Wachowskis feet, but I think it is worth remarking on, right? I’m not gonna say that they have failed, utterly failed, but I think it’s worth remarking on that the movie does not quite make that jump for me.
Merri
I think it’d be really hard for them to have predicted something like this-
Missy
-Oh absolutely!
Merri
So to be like, well, we need to make sure that people don’t… I think they were more like, “Red pill! Right?”
Missy
Yeah. I mean, how could you anticipate this?
Merri
Yeah.
Missy
So this is another quote here from “Re-Writing ‘Reality’: Reading ‘The Matrix'” by Russell J.A. Kilbourne, who writes, “But it remains a piece of exemplary narrative fiction by upholding rather than compromising or effacing the distinction between the real and the fictional within its own narrative frame, and this is where the Baudrillardians in the audience go astray. The film’s reflexive narrative strategies have the very opposite effect from a ‘laying bare,’ an exposing of the artifice of the story’s fictionality. They collude, in a seeming paradox, to maintain the illusion or semblance of ‘fictional reality’ demanded by the science-fiction genre. The default position for the viewer is thus the highly pleasurable one of ‘mystification,’ as far as the relation between ‘reality’ and Matrix goes, and in terms of the possibility of identification with Neo as hero on a journey of self discovery.”
So essentially, what Kilbourne argues here is that by using the distance of science fiction and film, it’s easy for viewers to come away from The Matrix not questioning the ways that they themselves live in a similar confusing state of unreality. I think the evidence is there and clear that, in addition to telling a cool story about machines, the Wachowskis were trying to get us to look at the things that we consider to be true and self evident, right? I think that that is like- it’s everywhere, all over the film. Why did so many people not get that? How did we get from what Lily Wachowski has made clear as a trans narrative, and I will link to this in the show notes, because-
Merri
Didn’t it take her a while to be like, “Yes, it is a trans narrative?”
Missy
It took her a while to- well, this is talking specifically about Lily, I can’t speak for Lana. This was an interview with Lily. She said essentially that they were laying the seeds of this throughout the first Matrix. But not everybody got it. So I’m gonna link to this interview in the show notes so that you can watch. And we will talk more about the idea of The Matrix as a trans narrative next time. I wanted to hold off on that specifically, because from what I remember what you said about the new one, they make explicit reference to the theory that it is a trans narrative.
Merri
Yeah, yeah.
Missy
So I wanted to be able to keep that- have that be part of the discussion as well. And the reason I wanted to talk about- the one reason I wanted to link to Lily talking about it specifically- I know death of the author, but I’m cis and I genuinely missed a lot of the things the Wachowskis dropped in the movies about trans identity.
Merri
And I can’t imagine how easy it was to not get those in the 2000s.
Missy
Right.
Merri
When that was something that was looked at completely different.
Missy
Yeah-
Merri
-Just wrong.
Missy
Yeah. So how did we get from what Lily Wachowski has made clear as a trans narrative to MRAs, to Elon Musk and to Ivanka Trump talking about being redpilled and Lilly Wachowski responding, “Fuck both of you?” And, well, I think that’s one of the themes of the movie, isn’t it? Like, it’s hard to have your eyes opened, it is hard to confront that the reality that you think you’re living in is simulated, too. It’s also sometimes hard to understand that things like white privilege and patriarchy are real. And we want to invent narratives that make those things not true, so that we can stay comfortable.
Merri
Absolutely. And I think that’s what’s happening a lot- like politically as well. It’s almost like you didn’t open your eyes, you just closed them even more.
Missy
Yeah!
Merri
You put a sleep mask over-
Missy
You’ve- instead of you know, like the idea of transitioning from the red pill as its depicted in the movie as an eye opening thing to the red pill subreddit, it’s like you- you didn’t open your eyes so much as you cast your eyes around for anything that was going to be a life raft to let you continue to think of yourself as victimized. What I’m getting at here is that we are constantly being offered red and blue pills, right? Every single day of our lives, we are being offered red and blue pills. And many of us are taking the blue pills while telling ourselves we’re taking red, because it’s easier to believe that we are always the heroes. Like, the denial of white privilege is taking the blue pill.
Merri
You can see this really well in the people who are veering to Q-Anon and like, specifically, if you look at the guy who went to go and shoot up the pizza place.
Missy
Right.
Merri
Because there was nothing there. And he still came away with like, “Nah, there was something there.”
Missy
Yep.
Merri
Or the HBO show that clearly showed the one guy is Q, and none of them will talk about it. Even though there are people in that movie who were- are in the Q movement. And it’s like they won’t talk about it because it doesn’t- it’s not their reality.
Missy
It doesn’t fit their narrative.
Merri
Exactly. They won’t open their eyes. It’s so frustrating!
Missy
And this- this happens every day to all of us. This isn’t exclusively a right-wing phenomenon. Like every day, sometimes we have to close our eyes to something that we don’t want to acknowledge.
Merri
Especially now.
Missy
Yeah, there’s always like, all of us are interacting with this. I don’t think there’s a single person on this fucking earth who can say that they are totally aware of everything that they do. And they never- they always take the metaphorical red pill. I don’t think there’s a single person on God’s green earth that can say that.
Merri
But more people are trying.
Missy
Yeah, and I think that’s good. And I think that it’s a good thing to you know- like, okay, for example, I am not a vegetarian, I’m not vegan. I’m aware of the horrors of the factory farming industry. I do still eat meat on occasion.
Merri
I go to Starbucks.
Missy
Yeah, we were having a whole conversation before we started recording-
Merri
Starbucks is bad!
Missy
-about Starbucks union busting-
Merri
-but it’s like- it’s like, better than a lot of the coffee stands around me. I’ve tried them. They’re gross.
Missy
They’re consistent- Starbucks is, if nothing else, consistent.
Merri
Yeah. Or they’re full of like, just so much sweetener.
Missy
Consistent in its badness, in my opinion. The coffee tastes bad to me. But you know, we’re all making these kinds of decisions. I have to go to Target later today. I know Target is maybe, MAYBE, marginally better than Walmart- a place I will not shop. It’s- it’s bullshit. Like, that is- that is self delusion. The idea that Target is better than Walmart. Why is it better than Walmart? I don’t know. The lights in there don’t make me feel like dying.
Merri
There aren’t as many people talking about how poorly Target is treating their work environment.
Missy
I didn’t watch an entire documentary about Target.
Merri
Yeah. But I will say I worked for Target for a hot second. I hated it. I quit. I just stopped showing up. And then they called me a week later. And they’re like, can you come in early? I was like, I literally haven’t shown up for a week. Anyways, part of my training was anti-union stuff.
Missy
Yep.
Merri
And I literally sat there with- there was just one other kid, and I couldn’t believe what I was watching. I mean, this is me at like, 22 with that. And I was like, I looked at him like, “They’re showing us anti-union stuff! That’s so weird.” And he’s like, “meh.” Yeah. And I was like, this is weird. It was so weird to me. And like, that’s bad.
Missy
Yeah, but that is me taking the blue pill when I go to Target later today to pick up some stuff that I need.
Merri
Especially if you end up buying their pride stuff.
Missy
I won’t do that. It’s always ugly.
Merri
It’s not cute. Actually, there’s some overalls that I really liked that are really cute. And there’s a button up shirt that I think is really cute. But, yeah.
Missy
Yeah, it’s me taking the blue pill and choosing to believe that somehow Target is better than Walmart. They both fucking suck.
Merri
I’m gonna swallow a horse blue pill in a couple days, when I go to Disneyland.
Missy
Yeah!
Merri
I’m gonna just be drowning in them. Especially with all their pride merch out!
Missy
Yeah, this isn’t like, this isn’t a condemnation of doing that. It also isn’t a tacit endorsement of saying, well, nothing matters, so it’s okay to shop at the union busting Target, right? Like, it’s not that either. But you have to be aware of that you don’t continue to delude- like if I can delude myself about that, what else am I deluding myself about? You know? What other blue pills am I swallowing unconsciously? At least I should be consciously swallowing them. So, you know, here’s the question, for me. What could the Wachowskis have done to avoid this, right? Like, not just- not the formation of The Red Pill? There’s nothing- I don’t think they could have done anything about that. But the idea that so many people took away from this movie, “What if we’re living in a simulation? and not, “We are living in a simulation.”
Merri
I wonder if they relied too heavily on philosophy?
Missy
Well, they literally put Simulacra and Simulation right there in the movie-
Merri
-But-
Missy
-physically present!-
Merri
-But I think when people hear simulation, I don’t know if they’re thinking, “Oh, that’s a philosophy.”
Missy
Well, I mean, they put his name on the cover.
Merri
I just don’t trust a lot of people to be like, “that’s a real person.”
Missy
Well that’s the thing. You’re jumping- you’re jumping ahead.
Merri
Oh sorry, sorry.
Missy
You cannot always control how a message is going to be received. And I don’t think they’re to blame, right, nor do I have concrete answers as to how they could have avoided this.
Merri
You shouldn’t have to dumb down your movie.
Missy
Right! I think- I mean- like, the movie is pretty clear. In my opinion. It’s pretty clear. There will always be bad faith readers, or readers who don’t want to engage with the material beyond what they want to see in it, which is typically themselves as the heroes. There are some really interesting readings of this movie as a white savior narrative, which is doubly interesting because Keanu Reeves, as we discussed in our Constantine episode, is native on Hawaiian- sorry, Native Hawaiian and Chinese as well as English, Irish, and Portuguese. So he’s mixed race. So reading this as a white savior narrative is FASCINATING. Just, just fascinating. And it’s-, I’m not even gonna say it’s wrong, right? Like, a lot of people read Keanu Reeves as white and I don’t think- like, you should be informed right? But like, how is he constructed in movie?
Merri
There’s a really great movie on Netflix. I think it’s called Always Be My Baby.
Missy
Always Be My Maybe.
Merri
Always Be My Maybe, and it has Alison Wong?
Missy
Ali Wong.
Merri
She is in it and they bring in Keanu Reeves. And, first of all, he’s fucking amazing in that movie, but I saw an interview with him. And he expressed- he’s like, “It was really refreshing to- to be validated as Asian.”
Missy
Yeah.
Merri
So, yeah.
Missy
Yeah. And the thing I want to make clear is, it’s not Keanu Reeves’s fault if he’s read as white. But it is interesting to consider this as a white savior narrative with a mixed race man of Asian descent, and Native Hawaiian descent, as the white figure, just fascinating. But I don’t know, I think some clear parallels to our world would have helped, right? I don’t think that it needs to go as direct as the video game where like, the first line of the video game is, “as David Hume wrote…” I think maybe we can scale it back from that a little bit.
Merri
But at least it does say like, this is a person you can go read about.
Missy
But doesn’t the inclusion of Simulacra and Simulation with Jean Baudrillard’s name right there on the cover do the same thing?
Merri
I think that the outright-ness of having to read for the game, as this person said, will lead more people- I think, yes, definitely having that-
Missy
-But if you want to be like Neo, don’t you want to read what Neo reads? And then you look at Simulacra and Simulation, you throw it across the room in there like, this is too hard?
Merri
I don’t know, if people want to be like Neo as in-
Missy
-Oh, I think they do!
Merri
This is- because I feel like, I don’t know, it’s really difficult for me, because usually when I watch a movie, I watch it at face value until like, I started talking about it. And I think a lot of people watch things at face value. So I think coming away with like, “What if we are? What if everything isn’t fake?” It’s really easy to stop at. And if you’re not paying attention, you’re just looking at the cool shit. I think it’s easy to forget those things, right, with Baudrillard and stuff like that. So I think- I think it’s just like, almost like they went too hard or not, like clear… they’re really clear.
Missy
I think, because- so I’m thinking about myself younger. And when I saw somebody- like, I read a lot of books because bands name-dropped the book. Or watched a lot of movies because they would name- they would drop a line from the movie into a song or as the title of the song, because I wanted to be part of that discussion.
Merri
Yes, absolutely.
Missy
And I feel like if I were a different person, such as, if I was a 20 year old white man in 2000, whenever this movie came out, and I watched this movie, I might be inclined to want to be like Neo. I might want a sick trench coat and some little sunglasses. And I might be like, what does Neo do?
Merri
I also like- I think there’s just too many people who are like, “It’s not that deep.” You know? I think the same thing happens for me with a lot of horror movies. Like, I saw this person with a truck that had all this horror movie stuff on it, like tons, and then it had a “Blue Lives Matter.” And I was like- I don’t think a lot of these horror movies are like, not conservative stories. Horror movies tend to lean towards more like social issues. And so I think that people are just like, “It’s not that deep.” But I think it’s really easy to say, “What if everything is fake?”
Missy
It’s so frustrating to me that people see this and go, it’s not that deep, because like, literally they put they put Simulacra and Simulation in the movie, it’s right there!!! Is that-
Merri
I agree, I just think that there aren’t enough people to really come out and be like, “Oh, let’s go.”
Missy
But then the question is why and like- why not? And it’s- it comes back to that same idea of self delusion.
Merri
Yeah.
Missy
And taking you know, everyday, we take a blue and a red pill. And I just- what it came down to here is that I don’t know that there really is much the Wachoswkis could have done other than to have Neo look directly into the screen and go, “This is a movie about your life. This is- this is a metaphor for the life that you live.”
Merri
I mean, they could have put that in the end with Morpheus talking. And then they could have followed up with like, in the credits, further reading.
Missy
Put a little bibliography at the end.
Merri
I mean, listen, I would love if a lot of movies did that.
Missy
Yeah, that’d be sweet.
Merri
Yeah.
Missy
I think being a little more explicit about things would have at least resisted some of these readings, maybe making it a little less desirable to read ourselves as Neo, the one person seeing through and manipulating the illusion rather than as the regular people who are being duped by the simulation. I think maybe those things would have helped.
Merri
Yeah.
Missy
Overall, I think these movies are really interesting. And their impact on pop culture is huge. Like, I can’t think of anything with a larger pop culture, resonance.
Merri
I mean it affected movies forever.
Missy
Uhuh.
Merri
And the way that- obviously the “redpilling.”
Missy
It’s not- like, it didn’t have that huge of an impact on me. But when I think- like I was familiar with The Matrix before watching The Matrix because of its pop culture, osmosis, I guess. It was in everything, it was in Shrek.
Merri
Yeah!
Missy
You know?
Merri
It’s in everything.
Missy
It’s in everything. I like what the Wachowskis are doing more than I like the execution, which we can talk about more in the next episode. But regardless of my personal enjoyment of these movies, I’m really glad that they exist, even if the messages in them sometimes have been co-opted by some of the worst worst people on Earth. And by that I don’t mean lonely men, I mean men who commit mass shootings, and people who poison the earth and enact racist policies and Elon Musk and so on. That is not the Wachowskis fault, even if I wish that they had been a little clearer about the themes and how they connect to the real world rather than just how they fit into the sci-fi universe. But I don’t know! Because I don’t feel that it’s necessarily their responsibility to create a story that guides people in a particular direction.
Merri
I totally agree. I don’t think you should dumb down your- what you have to say so you can make a better impact morally on the world.
Missy
Yeah, I don’t think that’s the purpose of art. That’s the purpose of some art. But like, I don’t think that all art needs to be as digestible as possible to be effective.
Merri
Especially when you think about it being a trans allegory and this is deeply personal.
Missy
Yeah, for sure. I think it is okay that these movies are sometimes messy, and that they sometimes fail to get the point across. And I appreciate that they always swing for the fences, which should surprise nobody, even when they can’t see past their own biases, which was a big problem in Sense8. Anyway, there are so many layers to this franchise, and so much fascinating research on them that we can really only scratch the surface, even in two episodes.
Merri
Yeah, there’s so much.
Missy
Yeah. So if you have something you’d really like to hear about in our next episode, please let us know. I will do my best to squeeze it into the outline, you can always reach us at contact@fakegeekgirlscast.com. Do you have anything else to say?
Merri
No, this was a difficult- not like difficult, but it was- I think there’s a lot to wrap your mind around. And I still like-
Missy
Free your mind!
Merri
Yeah, right. I’m sure there are things in this podcast that I’ve said today that I’m going to think back like, “Oh, no, I disagree with what I said there.” Because-
Missy
I do that constantly.
Merri
Yeah. Because I think for a lot of this, like- yes, it’s the second time I’ve heard all this but it’s still- I’m still trying to figure out how I feel and it’s difficult when so many people got such a different idea from this movie. So like trying to figure out how they take it, or different philosophers ,and it’s just it’s a lot, and I applaud you for getting this all together.
Missy
Well I think the point- like my main takeaway here is less “there are answers” and more “there are questions” and the questions are worth asking.
Merri
I agree.
Missy
So, if you if you 100% disagree with me on like everything I’ve said in this episode, that’s fine because I think that the movie did what it should have done, which is cause you to ask questions, and unless the only question that you ask is “What if we are living in simulation?” We are!
Merri
Or, is Keanu Reeves a babe?
He is a babe until he becomes the One, and then he’s not a babe anymore.
Missy
He is, they just put him in stupid shit.
It’s true. He is still a babe.
Merri
He’s a babe in stupid shit.
Missy
Yeah.
Merri
He’s a shitty babe.
Missy
We’ve come full circle. That’s it for this episode. You can find us online at fakegeekgirlscast.com, it has all of our previous episodes and a link to our Patreon where for a small donation… you can give us money.
Merri
You can listen to us live stream, which we got working.
Missy
Yep, we did fix it today.
Merri
We did fix it, and you can hear all the things that Missy ends up taking out.
Missy
Yep. Everything about Meghan “Thee Baby.”
Merri
Leave that part in there, maybe it’ll-
Missy
It’ll entice people!
Merri
Maybe eventually if you join the Patreon you’ll get my spicy book talk.
Missy
Oh, yeah.
Merri
Reviews-
Missy
-Yes. I think we should do that.
Merri
I think that’d be funny. I just read a really dumb one.
Missy
Good.
Merri
I read a lot of dumb ones.
Missy
Good.
Merri
I did just get the audiobook for Holly Black’s new book.
Missy
Oh, nice!
Merri
I’m so excited!
Missy
You can also email us at contact@fakegeekgirlcast.com to get an invite to our Discord. Where we’re always chatting about stuff.
Merri
Today there was a conversation about plants and like growing food.
Missy
Yeah, it’s a very nice place. Everybody in it is super chill and friendly. And if you want to join in, please just send me an email at contact@fakegeekgirlcast.com and I’ll get you an invite.
Merri
Yeah.
Missy
Next time we will be talking about the next two Matrix movies that is Revolution and Resurrection(s?). It might or might not be plural.
Merri
I’m pretty sure- I can’t super remember. I’m pretty sure the last movie (besides Animatrix now) is my favorite one.
Missy
I’m really excited to watch the new one.
Merri
I think the new one is so much more explicit, probably because of everything we just talked about.
Missy
Yeah, that’s one of the reasons I really want to watch it. I want to know what it is like to look back at the Matrix, you know, 20 or so years later and-
Merri
It’s so meta, Missy. It’s so meta.
Missy
I’m really excited about that!
Merri
It’s so meta, it starts with him working on the Matrix game!!
Missy
I’m so excited. After that we’re gonna be doing Pushing Daisies-
Merri
I’m so excited!
Missy
-A special treat for me! And then we’re gonna be doing What We Do In The Shadows, also a special treat for me.
Merri
I think that we should bake pies for Pushing Daisies-
Missy
Ugh, god!
Merri
And I can eat a pie and do some ASMR!!
Missy
Oh my god, I’m so-
Merri
I’ll make a pie, or a galette.
Missy
You can make one of the ones from the show, they have some interesting ones. The big one that she makes, she makes specifically for her Aunt, it has antidepressants in it, you don’t have to do that part. But it’s a pear with gruyere baked into crust.
Merri
Ooh, that would be a really good galette. For some reason galettes are easier for me than pie.
Missy
Oh galettes are way easier!
Merri
My husband’s always like, “It’s a pie without a pan!”
Missy
But it’s easier!
Merri
You don’t have to bake it for-
Missy
The crust always comes out better.
Merri
It’s delicious.
Missy
I do have a pie crust in my freezer that I should probably use up though, but What We Do In The Shadows, I’m very excited about and yeah, it’s gonna be good!
Merri
Catch you on the flip side, or am I? Or is it a simulation?
Missy
What is the flip side?
-THEME MUSIC-
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