[THEME MUSIC]
Missy
Hello, and welcome to Fake Geek Girls, a podcast looking at nerdy pop culture from both a fan and critical perspective, encouraging the things we love to do better. I’m Missy, I’m a writer and Eclipse is both the best and worst Twilight book so far. You’re not going to hear a lot about the parts that are the best though.
Merri
Yeah. I’m Merri, I’m a marketer, and there are times in which I enjoyed Jacob.
Missy
Yeah.
Merri
Which – then they were like, mm, you’re wrong.
Missy
Then they were like, fuck you.
Merri
And then there were times I sincerely enjoyed Edward. And then he opened his mouth.
Missy
He’s kind of funny sometimes.
Merri
Well, like – I really enjoyed when he would be like – I really appreciated him being like, “If you want to go hang out with Jacob. That’s you.”
Missy
Yeah.
Merri
“You do you. I trust he’ll keep you safe.” And I really enjoy when he wouldn’t speak. And he’d just like comfort her.
Missy
Bella really does have two hands.
Merri
Right?
Missy
Whenever I say that, I feel like the interpretation is that I mean it dirty and –
Merri
It can be both.
Missy
But I sincerely – this is a chaste fucking book, like I sincerely mean she can hold both their hands at the same time.
Merri
Yeah, the stuff I didn’t realize – that she’s literally not even using tongue when she’s kissing.
Missy
Why? I know!
Merri
That was wild to read. I literally was like, What did I just read? Did I read that correctly?
Missy
They’re just like –
[SMOOCHING SOUNDS]
Like I do to my fucking cat.
Merri
What was her kiss with Jacob like? I think she went for it. It felt like she went for it. Which is probably why she was like, I love him.
Missy
She’d never –
Merri
She’d never truly kissed somebody like that.
Missy
Yeah. Anyway.
Merri
Anyway, yeah.
Missy
Today we’re talking about Eclipse, the third book in the Twilight Saga. Just as a – well, first of all, I do want to give a trigger warning for this one, because we are going to be talking about sexual assault, emotional abuse, physical abuse, psychological abuse, within the context of the book, but also within the context of, like, society. We’re not going to talk about anything more graphic than what is in the book itself. But those are topics that are going to come up in this episode. So if that is distressing for you, feel free to skip this one. You know how it is. Also I want to give a reminder of what we talked about last time, because there’s so much to talk about in this series, and I don’t want to spend too much time rehashing things that we already spent quite a lot of time on. So just as a refresher, last time we talked about death worship. So death, religion, and the afterlife are all really entangled in Twilight in a way that actually fits quite well with our two His Dark Materials episodes. The characters of this series seek death because they believe it will bring them to a place of eternal perfection, and they really don’t care about anything else they lose along the way. The series also has a preoccupation with youth. Obviously, Edward is much older than Bella, but the way that youth functions in this series feeds back into the death worship. Aging is seen as horrific because you’re straying further from perfection. We talked about Mormonism, not in the sense of blaming the unsavory content in Twilight on Meyers’s religion, but in the sense of understanding how her religion interacts with the story, and how that’s entangled with sexist and racist concepts in our society as well as in Mormonism in particular. The thing I want to make clear here is that we are obviously talking about Meyers’s religion and how that impacts the work that she does. But it is not solely about like, pointing the finger at Mormonism, essentially implying that these books would be better if she wasn’t Mormon, because I don’t think that’s true.
Merri
But at some point, you cannot ignore the fact that she’s Mormon.
Missy
Right, right, right. We also talked about racism and colonialism, the construction of a real Native American tribe, the Quileut, in this series uses racist tropes and a colonial mindset to change the beliefs, practices and humanity of a real group to suit the narrative. Boy howdy, that’s coming back. And gender roles. So this series ascribes to traditional gender roles. Women are caretakers, men are protectors, but provides the illusion of choice to avoid criticism. So that’s kind of what we talked about last time. If you haven’t read Eclipse, this one actually has a plot.
Merri
Yeah!
Missy
Which is more than I can say for the rest of the series.
Merri
Which is like the only reason it was better than the other. It was better written.
Missy
It was readable. So in this one, Victoria, who’s the mate of James, the vampire that Edward killed for attacking Bella way back in book one, she is creating an army of newborn vampires to hunt and destroy Bella, resulting in a bunch of murders in Seattle. At the same time, Bella and Edward argue about their future together. Bella doesn’t want to get married, but Edward refuses to change her, which is now a necessity due to the pressure over the Volturi, which happened in the last book, until they are married. Likewise, Bella really, really wants to have sex as a human. Like, she wants to lose her virginity to Edward while she’s a human.
Merri
Like it is not even like – like you don’t have to read between the lines.
Missy
No, this girl wants to fuck. But Edward refuses that as well in case he hurts her. Jacob is still lusting after Bella to a truly awful degree. There’s a bunch of hypermasculine posturing, but Bella chooses Edward after Jacob forcibly kisses her, although they remain friends, and later she’s like, “Kiss me!” to stop him from killing himself. I fucking hate this. And the vampires and werewolves team up to stop the threat from Victoria’s newborn army. That’s basically the gist of it.
So let’s start off on a super light note here and talk about racism. We are unfortunately not done talking about racism in this series. It arguably gets worse.
Merri
It totally gets worse.
Missy
Yeah, in this book. While there was a lot of gross language and stereotyping in New Moon, Eclipse is what gives us the entire invented creation myth of the Quileute, which, again, are a real group of people living in the very real La Push area of Washington. These are real people in real places. The actual Quileute creation myth does involve human transformation into wolves, but not like that. Just full stop. Not like that. And one thing I found especially egregious in the film was the choice of costumes for showing the story, which sounds like – like why fixate on that, Missy, but here’s my –
Merri
It is important.
Missy
I’m not an expert in historical fashion by any fucking stretch of the imagination, other than that in the Fake Geek Girls Discord are all now united in our hatred for empire waists. So I’m not an expert in historical fashion, but the choice of clothes for the vampire character appeared to be like, I don’t know, somewhere in like the 16- to 1800s. Because the actual Quileute creation story involves wolves, and this is sort of a creation story for the fictionalized Quileute, there’s this unspoken implication that the Quileute did not exist as such until the arrival of vampires slash whiteness, into like their ancestral home in the La Push area. In isolation, we could read this as sort of a miscommunication with regard to the creation story versus the creation of the werewolf story, because I think that’s kind of what’s happening. They’ve collapsed the creation of the Quileute and the creation of the werewolves into one story rather than treating them as two different things. But there’s this pervasive attitude in the real world, not in the world of Twilight – actually, arguably, Twilight is a little bit better about acknowledging that Native Americans still exist in the real world. But anyway, there’s this pervasive attitude that Native Americans don’t exist anymore, and that America came into being with the arrival of white colonizers. Neither of which are at all true. The visual language of the film, in my opinion, unconsciously echoed this belief as if the Quileute did not exist prior to the arrival of white people slash vampires in the Pacific Northwest.
Merri
I wonder if this has – and not literally, like she thought about this, but there’s some unconscious connection between like Joseph Smith seeing the tablets in the hat and – does Mormon[ism] believe that Jesus was in America?
Missy
Yes.
Merri
So yeah, this idea that like, not life, but like a culture of Mormonism started much later in the history of the world. So I wonder if there’s just this unconscious idea of like,”Well, yeah, it didn’t really, truly matter until Mormonism.”
Missy
Yeah, I think there’s just this attitude in the film, especially, because I didn’t get as much this from – because I can’t see the costume in the book, right? They don’t describe the outfit that the vampire was wearing. But in the film, it felt like 16- to 1800, somewhere in there to me, with the implication being that the Quileute did not exist as such until vampires arrived. And that’s – I mean, obviously, it’s ahistorical in the sense that vampires did not create the Quileute in real life. But it’s also ahistorical in the fact that like Native people existed and had culture long, long, long before white people arrived in the Pacific Northwest. The Pacific Northwest in particular, right, because there were there were pre-English explorers, prior to the pilgrims, you know. But the visuals of the film seem to imply that the Quileute began with the arrival of whiteness in America and that’s fucked up.
Merri
You say that because that’s when they learned how to turn into wolves?
Missy
Yeah, because the werewolf thing seems like such a core part of the Quileute in particular. And their place in in the world literally, like, because there’s so much – and like, I don’t – it’s really frustrating. And racist, frankly, because I’m just like – their ties to the land – and the reservation was created by white people like ugh! It’s just – the more you scratch chatter the more you find that it just gets worse and worse the more you think about it.
Merri
It’s also difficult – like it’s frustrating because in the book, the creation story goes on –
Missy
Forever!
Merri
So she clearly put a lot of thought into this but she didn’t put enough thought into what she was really saying.
Missy
She put a lot of thought into her story and none into the real people.
Merri
This book does feel really defensive. So it’s not really surprising.
Missy
Yeah, totally.
Merri
Also, this this book, while better than others, was really just an infodump and “here’s reasons why things will happen in the next one, so you can’t get mad at me.”
Missy
Yeah, it was – yeah, it was definitely the most enjoyable for me to read so far. But like –
Merri
I would agree.
Missy
What’s the bar here? It’s on the damn floor.
Merri
Yeah, I think for me, it was just simply that Jacob in the beginning and Edward and the end were both much more tolerable to me. Unless Edward was talking about marriage.
Missy
Yeah. So I have a quote I want to read here from It’s a Wolf Thing: the Quileute Werewolf/Shapeshifter Hybrid as Noble Savage by Natalie Wilson, who writes “While I am not suggesting Meyer intentionally drew on literary texts exploring the wolf (or “wulf”)” – they’re spelled differently – “her tales undoubtedly incorporate lore that frames the wolf as the dangerous Other, an Other that is ethnically and/or socioeconomically constructed as lesser and evil. That she does so is not surprising, as werewolves are traditionally framed as evil. And, due to a variety of factors, the wolf as evil, as codified in European lore and modern werewolf tales, is a far more common depiction than the wolf as totem protector, as found in much indigenous lore. Given that indigenous peoples were framed as animals in order to justify colonization, it makes sense that their reverence for the wolf is lost in mainstream cultural narratives. In other words, showing animals as intelligent protectors, as wolves are often framed in indigenous lore, works against the human/animal hierarchy that colonization relies upon. The Twilight Saga echoes the common representation of the wolf and the indegene – ” Indegene? I’ve not seen that word before. Aside from the fact that I read this quote.
Merri
Is that like a singular version of indigenous?
Missy
I believe so. Sorry. “The Twilight Saga echoes the common representation of the wolf and the indegene -” I apologize If I’m saying that wrong – “as lesser rather than as a higher spiritual protector and guide. As such, the saga’s representation of ethnic Others contributes to the long historical tradition of linking the wolf to those framed as poor, savage, uncivilized, evil, and so on. Or, as Orenstein puts it, the werewolf is quote, a dangerous outcast, a social misfit, and a warning of the consequences of that status.” So we talked quite a lot about this in the last episode, but this continues in Eclipse. It doesn’t get better.
Merri
[WHISPERING] It gets worse.
Missy
It gets worse.
Merri
It’s like she felt comfortable in her racism.
Missy
That’s the thing is, I simply don’t think that she’s thinking about it. Like, I just think it doesn’t even cross her mind. Even though the vampires and the werewolves work together in this book, there’s still so much language and so many story choices that denigrate the Quileute characters as being primitive and literally animalistic.
Merri
And I think she uses the fact that Jacob and other people – they call them bloodsuckers and things like that. But like, that doesn’t have an actual cultural –
Missy
Right!
Merri
– consequence, whereas the things that they’re saying do.
Missy
Yeah!
Merri
So I feel like she used that as a way to be like, “Oh, no, see, they’re both getting at each other.”
Missy
Exactly.
Merri
But there’s a history there.
Missy
Yeah. It’s like calling me a cracker. Like, it’s just simply not the same.
Merri
It’s not the same.
Missy
Even though these characters are literally transforming into animals, that doesn’t erase the racism behind calling them mongrels, saying they stink, and mocking them for not wearing clothes. Like, that’s just fucking racist. Like, there’s literally – that’s just not okay. It’s just not okay, under any circumstance. Exactly as you said, I think she’s trying to counterbalance it by saying leeches, and parasites and so on and so forth. But they’re not equivalent. They’re not the same.
Merri
And this is one of the biggest issues I have with this book. It’s just so defensive. That’s defensive when she does that, right? She’s trying to justify – and just like, don’t.
Missy
Just don’t. That’s the thing. There’s a part when Jacob calls Edward a parasite for eating animals, and I’m like, so buddy, are you a vegetarian?
Merri
I thought the same thing! Right?
Missy
It doesn’t make any sense. So while these wolves might be the friends of the characters, at least temporarily, which does challenge the typical European association between wolves and evil and brutality and so on, because we’re seeing this like, nice side of them, whatever, whatever. They’re still clearly regarded as a lesser than the vampires, as we talked about last time. And the vampires clearly stand in for aspirational whiteness. So there’s a racial hierarchy to this. Ugh. It’s just so much.
Merri
I mean, look at the places – the depiction [of the places] in which they live.
Missy
Yeah!
Merri
And the fact that so many times – I don’t know if you noticed this – but so many times when they talk about Bella going to someone’s house, there’s a lot of people there. And I also felt like, I just don’t know if she’s the person to be speaking to that. Because there’s probably a cultural thing going on there, but it didn’t feel right coming from her. It kind of feels like, um, I don’t know, just the way that she describes where they live and the amount of people in one home and things like that, it just felt – and the fact that they’re always shirtless even felt like not great.
Missy
Yeah, it’s – we talked about that a bit in our last episode, with like, yeah, on the one hand, it’s like eye candy for the audience or whatever. But there’s more to it than that, too. You can’t just stop there. It’s one of those things where I’m sure Meyer wasn’t sitting there like twirling her proverbial moustache and saying, “Haha, I’m going to write the most racist shit about werewolves and vampires anybody can imagine.” I really don’t think that’s what was going on.
Merri
It could.
Missy
It could have been. I don’t think that’s it, though. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t deeply racist, right? Like, I don’t think that she thought she was writing some kind of propaganda. I think that she thought she was telling a compelling story. And for many readers she was. Tthis is why it is so good to be aware of how culture informs our thoughts on various topics, because it makes it easier to stop yourself from doing this kind of thing. And being aware of these ideas also means that when you read them, instead of saying, “Well, it’s fine, because they’re literally wolves.” You can think, “Now hold on a second, that seems pretty racist.”
Merri
Yeah.
Missy
Which helps you put up a barrier between you and this ideology, right? We talk about this a lot. It’s not so much like we have to ban these books, because they’re racist, so much as we need to be able to identify this kind of racist ideology when we see it, because that helps prevent ourselves from just excusing it, because it’s fiction. That doesn’t mean you know, you throw the book out the window and never read it again, although you can if you want to, I certainly want to. it means that you notice it, and you think about how it got there, and what that saying, and maybe you think about what other things you might be missing, you know, because everybody has things that they don’t always see. Everybody has things they don’t always know about. But the more you learn, the more you realize, “Oh, I have an unconscious bias here that I need to address.”
Merri
I have a hard time believing that nobody came to her by this book and was like, “Maybe you need to relook at how you’re like doing things with -“
Missy
Publishing is really white.
Merri
I guess that’s true
Missy
Publishing is really, really white.
Merri
Guess that’s true. I would imagine – I have this vision in my head of her being like, “Well, I’ve researched their story. So like, I know its origins, and I just changed things. But like, I know it, I respect it.” Like I have this vision of her just trying to justify everything.
Missy
Yeah. So just more narrowly, just like in the book itself. This is racist and colonialist, as is Meyers’s is coopting of a real group of people and their history to tell her story about vampires.
Merri
Why not just make them up? She made up the vampire.
Missy
She’s trying to lend it like this air of authenticity, but like, just don’t and say you did, you know?
Merri
How many people really knew that the Quileute actually existed?
Missy
Probably nobody, and like there have – we talked about in the last episode, there have been some benefits the Quileute as far as getting national attention for recognization of – I think it was recognization of tribal status and that kind of thing. Like, it hasn’t been negative in every single sense. But at the same time, you can do positive things for a real community without being racist in the process. The fact that she did this, that she coopted a real group of people and their history to tell a story about vampires would be enough for me to say it’s bad, but it’s worse. The vampires in the Twilight series uphold ideas of whiteness, Christianity, and wealth that feel especially bad when put against the depiction of the Native Americans in the series. I simply don’t care that Jacob is ostensibly a good guy. He isn’t, even if Bella forgives him, even if everything is washed away in the next book. Like he isn’t.
Merri
Actively a bad guy for a good chunk of a book. Like literally being like, “I don’t care how you think you feel about me. I know how you feel about me.” [GAGGING NOISE]
Missy
I simply don’t care that he’s ostensibly a good guy because he is fictional. And Meyer has chosen to write a Native American boy as a sexually aggressive animalistic predator. That’s literally what she has done. She has written a sexually aggressive animalistic predator who’s Native American, and that holds with every colonial myth about Native American people and the threat they represent to white womanhood since colonization in the US. It’s just racist.
Merri
Like she watched a western film.
Missy
Yeah. God, it’s so bad. It’s not that characters of marginalized backgrounds can’t have flaws – they can and they should – but that we’re looking at a racist construction based on racist history by a white author who does little, if anything, to counterbalance the centuries of racist rhetoric that this character is built upon. It’s just so much. And it’s just like – it’s inexcusable. It is just, frankly, inexcusable. I was so put off by the construction of Jacob in this book.
Merri
It felt like such a huge turn because Jacob – in the beginning, I really did feel like Jacob is a viable option. He’s nice. He really – like in the beginning of the book, I love when she sneaks away to see him for the first time and they’re just having a good time. Like, I just liked him being so nice to her. I feel like she needed that. She needed a friend that was not Edward or even Alice. She needed somebody and he was there, and that person just got like – “Oh, let’s yeet him over there.”
Missy
Yeah, it’s rough. So this is a quote from Happily Forever After: Constructing Conservative Youth Ideology in the Twilight Series, which is by Julia Perlman, who writes, “Eclipse marks a unique collaboration and understanding between the wolves and vampires, but the legacy of their respective hatred for the other is impossible to escape. The wolves agree to fight with the Cullens against a common enemy, though the decision is made on the grounds of protecting the people of Forks and La Push. The Cullens agree to train the werewolves, the wolves are impressed by the Cullens’ fighting prowess, and Edward murmurs to Bella, ‘It’s good for them to learn some respect.’ The connotation of this statement is more than paternalism, it’s the memory of slavery and colonialism, of white domination over indigenous cultures. Even after the wolves help the Cullens, the Cullens continuously dropped snide comments, such as ‘Go fetch’ that reaffirm their status as superior.” Just the mere –
Merri
Oof!
Missy
– the mere idea of training pisses me off. I know on a literal level it’s because the vampires are showing a bunch of new werewolves how to defeat vampires. That’s what’s literally happening on the page, right? But training mixed with dogs mixed with Native Americans under the tutelage of the whitest fucking white people? Meyer, through Jasper, even goes so far as to talk about one of the Vampires having Mexican features, but still looking white after her transformation. Like these are the whitest of the white. It just smacks of racism. There’s literally no other word for it.
Merri
It’s even worse when you think about the history of literally stealing Native American children and putting them in white schools to make them quote unquote, “more civilized.” Literally, what are you saying?
Missy
The quote that was in the last episode was the – “kill the Indian save the man.” Yeah, like, it’s just –
Merri
That seems like what’s happening!
Missy
Yeah, it’s just –
Merri
“Learn respect.”
Missy
It’s so rough. It’s so rough. And like, again, I don’t think this is Meyer doing some kind of intentional propaganda. I think that Meyer –
Merri
Is just racist!
Missy
– like many and arguably most white American women is thinking only of people like her. Like that’s all she’s thinking about. She isn’t thinking outside of herself. She’s thinking about what will make a fun story that she’d like to tell. But in relying on centuries of unquestioned racist rhetoric, even if she doesn’t realize that she’s doing it, she is perpetuating the myths that lead to discrimination and exploitation. That’s why we need to have this conversation, not because you can’t ever have a werewolf Native American in a book, not even because white people shouldn’t be allowed to write characters who aren’t the same race as them, but because when you do this kind of thing, you not only replicate but perpetuate ideas that further white supremacy. This is white supremacist. I understand that I don’t think that Meyer would identify herself as a white supremacist. I think that she probably overall thinks that racism is bad, but these are white supremacist ideas in this book. That is that is what this is.
Merri
Yeah.
Missy
And that’s why it’s so important to be cognizant of it, because if you don’t understand that you can accidentally perpetuate white supremacism, my friend, you are perpetuating white supremacy. That’s just the fact. You have to know, you have to understand what you’re doing, and what these things mean beyond the like, literal fiction of what’s happening on the page. So that’s rough, is what I have to say.
Merri
It’s not great.
Missy
It’s not great. Do you have anything else to say about the racism?
Merri
No.
Missy
It fucking sucks.
Merri
I’m sure it gets even worse.
Missy
It does.
[DISGUSTED NOISES]
Merri
The framing of Jacob is like a predator in a sexual sense was over the top and did not – like, it did not jive with the Jacob that we’ve been shown.
Missy
This isn’t – this is not what I should fixate on. But I – Team Jacob, the first two books, Team Jacob. Sorry about it. Team Jacob. But the thing is that this – I know we joke around a bit here about character assassination. But Jacob Black character assassination. Not my Jacob. That’s not my boy.
Merri
I saw this one Instagram or Tiktok that was like “If you were a Team Jacob, we all know that you are a massive friends to lovers himbo lover.”
Missy
It’s true.
Merri
Yeah.
Missy
And like, where did that go?
Merri
He gets mean, almost –
Missy
Yeah!
Merri
Mean and forceful and like –
Missy
It’s bad. It’s so bad. And it is inextricable from the racism – and the hyper masculinity and the racism and everything about it, you can’t disentangle them. They’re all tied up together. It’s so bad. So let’s talk about something more uplifting: gender relations. So, now we come to the part that you’ve no doubt heard a lot about before. The gender relations, including ideas of abuse and rape culture in the series – this is probably the thing I think that people talk about the most. Aside from the sparkly vampires, which I think we’ve established by this point, I don’t fucking care. I don’t give a shit if they sparkle.
Merri
I feel like she gave up on that sparkle real quick.
Missy
Yeah.
Merri
You don’t see him sparkle again.
Missy
I simply do not care.
Merri
I’m more worried about them being stone. How do you kiss stone? I think I put a note in here: “How do you kiss a rock?”
Missy
Just making out with – you just do it, Merri.
Merri
I guess that’s why you have to –
[KISSING NOISES]
Your lips can’t form into the other’s.
Missy
Oh boy. We’ve talked about Edward’s stalkery behavior before and why his old-school values might be appealing to modern readers. So we’re not going to revisit that too much. I don’t want to keep beating the dead horse here. One thing that really interested me as we were reading this was that much of Edward’s bad behavior -and it is bad. I want to make that clear, he’s bad, the bad behavior is bad. But the thing that interested me – it was actually part of his character growth in this book. As much as I don’t like this series, and as much as I absolutely fucking loathe Edward, it was not purely about stopping Bella from seeing Jacob. And he really did give Bella an apology, and say that he needs to trust her more and he did do that.
Merri
And he does.
Missy
Like there was legitimate growth on Edward’s part as the character. I appreciated that. This book is trash. And I don’t want to suggest that this makes the series harmless. But I think we should engage with the book in terms of what is actually happening without leaving things out, right? Because a lot of people are like, “He takes the engine out of her car. That’s abusive.” And I’m like, “You know what, you’re right. It is abusive, but -” And I know nobody wants to hear a ‘but’ after that sentence, but… Edward needed character growth. And given the extreme and exaggerated events happening everywhere in this book, I am not forgiving what he did there so much as I am understanding it as a reaction that is contextual. He’s worried that Bella will be attacked by the newborn vampires where he cannot see it happen. That’s what he’s afraid of. There is not not an element of jealousy here too, right? He is jealous of Bella’s relationship with Jacob. So that’s not not a factor. But there is this other element of he doesn’t want her to get hurt. There is a very real threat to her, and he wants to be able to ensure that nothing bad is going to happen. And that behavior is coded as wrong within the text itself, or there would be no need for him to apologize and make efforts to trust Bella with her own safety. So the thing is, I’m not going to say that this is not an abusive move. And I’m not going to say that it is harmless to depict. What I am going to say is that within the context of what’s happening in the book, I think this is not the place to focus our attention. Is it extreme? Yes. This is a real abuse tactic I have seen in real life. This is not me defending this happening so much as it is: Okay, but there are other confounding factors here. And it’s part of his growth arc.
Merri
Yeah. And later on, he really does become trusting. He trusts her to be with Jacob. He doesn’t really trust Jacob, but he’s still like, “You know what, I trust him to protect her. And I trust her.” Even when she kisses him, he’s like, “I understand. It doesn’t bother me, because I know that you love me and we’re destined.” And I’m just like, yeah, that’s a better – I like this one better.
Missy
Yeah. Again, it’s not to say it’s not harmless. It’s not to say it’s not abuse. It’s understanding it within the context of a growth arc. And what is happening in the book, where there are, you know, life-threatening vampires.
Merri
it’s something that Jacob didn’t get.
Missy
Yeah.
Merri
He didn’t get the growth into a bad guy.
Missy
No.
Merri
He just was.
Missy
So I do want to talk about romanticizing abuse, though, because that is a big topic of conversation when it comes to this series, and I think this book in particular, because this is where everybody’s behavior gets real bad. So romanticizing abuse is a big topic in books like this, where the male characters are domineering, and the female characters are more submissive, generally speaking. This is also a highly popular relationship dynamic in fiction and even in real life. So when we talk about it, we want to be sure that we’re understanding power, negotiation, play and abuse, because the thing is, you can have consensual relationships with unbalanced power dynamics that are not abusive. You can also have relationship dynamics that are uneven and are abusive. There has to be an understanding of consent and of what is play and negotiation and all these kinds of things, that it is not inherently abusive, it is not inherently not abusive. And so when we’re looking at relationships like this, we need to understand okay, what is abuse? And what is romanticizing, in this context? So this is a quote from – well, this is what the Domestic Violence Services Network suggests. And this is a quote, “It is easy for the reader to identify toxic behavior when the abuser is the villain of the story, or at least the rival to the romantic hero. But what about when the abuser is the romantic hero? Abusive and controlling behavior is often portrayed as an expression of love and therefore desirable. It is ‘romanticized’ into something positive that the reader should root for and idealize in their own relationships. In addition, the victim is often shown as loving or forgiving for sticking with or taking back an abusive partner.” Now, this article uses Twilight as an example several times, which I think is totally fair. That is a description of what happens in Twilight. Edward is controlling. Bella is submissive. These books absolutely romanticize that power dynamic, by which I mean they sand off the rough edges of Edward’s behavior such as I mentioned above – or earlier because you’re not looking at an outline. And they make it desirable rather than a red flag, right? Him taking the engine out of Bella’s car is a desirable action. It’s showing he’s protective, even though in real life that would – that would be the biggest red flag. That would be a red carpet waving in the air. Edward is our romantic hero, therefore everything he does must be right, is what this kind of story is leading us to believe. Something Merri and I talked about outside of this episode is that she likes the villainous romances with domineering male characters, but she really hates Edward, which is fair, I also hate Edward. But I asked him – and I was trying not to ask this in a snarky fashion, because it sounded – there was like no way for me to ask this question without sounding snarky. There’s like no way for me to ask this question without sounding snarky, especially because I think we’re all aware of my lack of interest in this kind of romance dynamic. So I asked, you know, what is the difference, Merri?
Merri
It’s fine, because I was literally thinking the same thing. So it’s fine. But at first, I was like, “Well, I just don’t fucking like this, and I like those other books.” But I thought about it a lot. And when it comes down to, I think, for me, is that the villains – they’re fucking bad guys.
Missy
Right.
Merri
These mafia guys, they come back and they have blood all over him. And it wasn’t killing the bad guys. It wasn’t kill – I mean, maybe, but like, these are bad guys. These are very bad guys. And I’m like, you know, be bad! If this would have happened in one of the books I read, the kidnapping would have been romantic. The stalking – listen, I just read one where there’s stalking involved. And you know what? It was fucking weird and fucked up. But I liked it. I liked it. Because he’s a bad guy. He’s not a good guy. And you know what, there’s just something like, cathartic about being like, well, I guess I like you. And I guess you’re just gonna do what you’re gonna do – like, one of the things that bothered me so much about Edward is this idea that he knows best for Bella. So the example I was talking about when I said this Missy was that he is trying to get her to go to college, and the way he’s doing it is so condescending, in being like, “You think you don’t need to go, but I’m telling you, you need to go.”
Missy
And the thing that this reminded me of was you talking about some of the romance novels that you read, where it’s like, the man is like, “You need to sit down and I’m going to take care of everything for you.” And I’m like, what is the fundamental difference between these two things?
Merri
And it’s that the villains are just villainous. Like if that were to happen in the books that I had been reading, but it was with a villain, it’d be like, “I already signed you up for college. You’re going. You don’t have a choice.” It would be like that. But the difference, I think, when I’m reading those, as opposed to reading this, is in this – they are works of fiction, they’re not real. And in those books, the guy does know what’s best for the girl and what will work for her, because it’s a work of fiction and the author knows.
Missy
Well, and I think there’s a tacit understanding when you’re reading that, that they are they are villains.
Merri
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Like there’s one of I can’t remember –
Missy
That is not true of Edward.
Merri
No, it is not. There’s one book that begins with like, “To all the girls who’ve always rooted for the villains.” And these books are not even like, “Oh, I love Kylo Ren.” No, these books are fucking bad guys. Not all the stuff I read, but like, if I’m going to read a story about – like, I read one, I think it was by Tessa Bailey, and it was a mafia guy, but he was like, kind of soft and like wasn’t really that bad –
Missy
Soft mafia. A softia.
Merri
Yeah. He liked to paint and he didn’t really want to be in the mafia. I was like, “This is not what I’m reading a mafia romance for, like at all. Like you may have kidnapped her, but you feel bad about it. You shouldn’t feel bad. Don’t feel bad about it. Just don’t.” So I think that’s what it comes down to, this like – villains are bad. And in these books with villains, they know what’s best and they know how to take care of the person and it’s literally true. Whether or not she wants it or not, because it’s a work of fiction and I can go in and I can trust that this person does know what’s right.
Missy
Well, the thing I want to make clear here, though, is that Twilight is also a work of fiction, right? And the reader knows everything – Edward’s right.
Merri
But the issue is that he’s – the things he’s doing are like a villainous thing but he’s not a villain.
Missy
But there’s no understanding in Twilight that he is behaving villainously.
Merri
Yeah, like the idea of saying you should go to college is not a bad thing. But the way that he’s talking about it, like he literally – he did sign up for college. And even to the point of like – you’re cheating your way into it. And that’s not a good-guy thing.
Missy
Yes, but the book wants us to believe that he’s a good guy, and that’s where I think this dissonance comes in is the fact that the book is telling us one thing and it’s not telling us – it’s not providing any hint that the the behavior itself is bad.
Merri
I read books on the complete other spectrum where like, the guy is super good. Like one of my favorite series is they are retired military people and all they do is good stuff and they’re very good people and they’re very respectful. If one of them did this in the book, it would be more like, “Abso-fucking-lutely not.” The female character would not stand for that, because that is not the dynamic that is written within these books. So I feel like that’s the disconnect for me, is that being villainous is something to commit to.
Missy
You gotta commit.
Merri
And she’s taking these things from books that I do like. And I think that a lot of these – the newer ones probably are taking a lot from Twilight and putting it into – but they’re just making Edward bad.
Missy
Yeah, this is this is really echoed in this essay, Meet the Cullens: Family Fomance and Female Agency in Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Twilight which is by Kristin Stevens, who writes, “Buffy clearly registers her disapproval of such behavior. In the opening episode of season two, ‘When She Was Bad,’ Buffy walks alone at night down an empty street. She is stalked by threatening and shadowy figure, yet rather than the typical response of a damsel in distress, or even one enamored, Buffy confronts her pursuer. In witty Buffy style, she retorts ‘You know being stalked isn’t really a big turn on for girls.’ While her pursuer is revealed to be the vampire closest to her heart, Angel, Buffy identifies the true nature of his actions. Angel is stalking Buffy, and unlike Twilight, in the Buffyverse, this does not translate as romantic, but rather as undesirable and unwanted attention. This identification of the threatening nature of the stalker within Buffy is further revealed through the actions of the evil Angelus in the latter half of season two. Here again, Angel stalks Buffy or more appropriately he now hunts her with all the connotations implicit in the roles of the hunter, exemplified by James and the deer hunter of Twilight. Here, Angel’s behavior more closely resembles that of Edward as he takes to entering Buffy and her friends’ houses uninvited and sketching them asleep. Unlike the romanticized vision of Edward watching Bella sleep, Angelus’ presence within the unwary Buffy’s room is constructed as alarming and threatening. Unlike Twilight, predatory behavior is not tolerated within Buffy’s world.” So what Twilight is missing is that the pattern of Edward’s behavior itself is bad. I think we could argue forever about whether Angel or Edward deserves to be forgiven. Personally, I don’t like either of them. But what Buffy has that Twilight does not is the acknowledgement that Angel’s behavior is predatory. And I think that that is the key thing to understand here, is Buffy gets that she is being stalked. Twilight does not. Or – Twilight, the protagonist of Twilight – BELLA does not understand that she is being stalked.
Merri
Yeah, and I think with the college thing you had mentioned, it feels like another way of Stephanie Meyer being very defensive about Edward being a misogynist.
Missy
Right. So would Twilight be better if that behavior was acknowledged as creepy?
Merri
Yeah.
Missy
Buffy has its problems, especially given what we now know about Joss Whedon. But I think it’s still largely regarded positively, right? Generally, within the sphere of pop culture, Buffy is a much-beloved series. There’s a lot of reasons that that could be, quality being one, misogyny being another, but focusing solely on the behavior of the love interest and the way that behavior is received by the heroine, do we think that Twilight would have less of a reputation for romanticizing abuse if Bella acknowledged that Edward’s behavior was not just rude but outright predatory?
Merri
Yeah.
Missy
Yeah, I think that it would, but I’m not 100% sure. Because having now read three of these books, I’m relatively comfortable saying I don’t like them at all, and I think they’re pretty bad. I don’t like them, folks. This just in: not a Twilight fan. But at the same time, I see how much of the context has been left out of casual conversation about them and how much sexism and ageism comes through even in academic work. So much of the academic work I read for this was like, “It’s for middle aged housewives. It is for horny teenagers.” And I’m like, we can have these conversations without having to rely on misogyny and ageism.
Merri
I hate those. I hate those arguments. I hate them.
Missy
Why don’t we talk about like, horny – I mean is Buffy not horny?
Merri
Right?
Missy
The show.
Merri
Yeah,
Missy
It’s a horny show. It’s just for a different demographic.
Merri
She wears a lot of short skirts.
Missy
Yeah. Feet.
Merri
So much feet.
Missy
It’s kind of fun to hate Twilight, I think. Which I don’t have a particularly strong feeling about, other than I think we can do better about focusing on the work and what’s really on the page versus saying people who liked Twilight are stupid or anti-feminist.
Merri
There’s a really good – or funny – interview between Zoe Kravitz and Robert Pattinson and they asked Zoe Kravitz if she had was Team Edward. And she’s like, “I’ve never actually watched Twilight,” and he just looks at her and he goes, “It isn’t cool anymore to hate on Twilight.” She’s like, “I really haven’t ever watched it!” He’s like, “It’s not cool anymore. Like the hate on it.”
Missy
It’s true. Like there’s really been kind of a reclamation of Twilight, which I have mixed feelings about because I feel like there is so much misogyny toward Twilight fans, like I think it’s undeniable. There’s misogyny and ageism, and all of these different things toward Twilight fans. The books are also like mad racist, like, mad fucking racist, and sexist, in ways that I don’t think get talked about enough. This is another quote here again from Happily Forever After: Constructing Conservative Youth Ideology in the Twilight series by Julia Perlman, who writes, “Moreover, Bella participates in her own patronizing i. Describing Jacobs fascination with mechanical work, Bella exclaims, ‘I figured I’d have to have a Y chromosome to really understand the excitement.’ Edward watches Bella sleep, restricts her actions, and even follows her under the guise of his consuming and loving obsession to protect her from harm, and instead of shouting sexual harassment, Bella feels ,a strange surge of pleasure., Bella is at once subjected by and accepting of male patriarchy. She passively submits to male domination and further encourages the reader to do the same.” So here we have an extreme reliance on gendering personality traits – that Bella would need a Y chromosome to understand mechanics – but I think more importantly, you have the literal romanticization of stalker behavior, right? Like literally. Meyer acknowledges through Bella that the pleasure she takes in being literally objectified as a precious item that needs protecting is strange – like she uses that word to describe it. But Bella never expresses that to anybody other than the reader. What’s communicated here is “I’m objectified, but I like it.”
Merri
Which – I’ve read those.
Missy
That’s the thing. It’s like, it’s fine, I think, within fiction to have that feeling. But we need to understand what’s going on and like maybe grapple a little bit with that strangeness. I think it’s good, actually, to to lean into that and be like, “What does it mean that I’m strangely into being objectified?”
Merri
I think there’s another difference between more modern versions of like romanticizing stalking, like something like Haunting Adeline, or Twilight, is there is an understanding within the newer books of this – all those types of books come with trigger warnings. They all do. And I don’t think that all books should come with trigger warnings, but I think there’s a real acknowledgement that these specific types of books understand these things are bad. And Stephenie Meyer – not the Twilight needs trigger warnings. I don’t believe that at all. But there’s no understanding that they’re bad.
Missy
Right. Like, on the one hand, I think that taking pleasure in being looked at and being protected is not a bad thing.
Merri
Yeah.
Missy
But we’re considering this in the context of this book, where male domination and rape culture are normalized. We’re gonna get to that in a minute. It’s not that Bella can’t be flattered by Edward’s interest. It’s that with everything else going on with regard to gender, abuse, and domination, we should ask what else is being communicated, right? I don’t want to argue whether Buffy or Twilight is more feminist – a word that I just generally don’t like to apply to media at all. But in comparing them, we can hopefully see the difference between romanticizing bad behavior and encouraging readers to do the same, and acknowledging that bad behavior can happen in relationships without romanticizing it. Because I think – now, I’m not a Buffy expert by any stretch of the imagination. I actually don’t really care for Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I’m sorry, everybody. I just don’t – I couldn’t get into it. But I think that the fundamental difference, and the thing – because everybody wants to compare Buffy and Twilight, right? There was a very popular t shirt around the time of Twilight’s like big heyday that was like, “And then Buffy staked Edward. The end.” Right? And it’s like – I’m not here for that. I don’t fucking care. I don’t fucking care about that. I don’t know – I don’t care what Buffy would do to Edward. It’s not interesting to me. What I care about here is the way that the two pieces of media treat the stalker love interest. And one is, “Hey, you’re being a fucking stalker. I still like you. But you’re being a fucking creep right now.” Versus, “I love it when you objectify me.”
Merri
An acknowledgment that that isn’t okay.
Missy
Yeah, like if Bella was like, “You’re objectifying me. It’s kind of hot.”
Merri
Then there’s consent given.
Missy
Exactly! Instead of just implying that the objectification itself is good, right? Like, if Bella put on some sexy lingerie and did a little pose for Edward –
Merri
Oh my god, that’d be so funny.
Missy
I’d be into that. Right? Like, I would be like –
Merri
He’d be so mad.
Missy
It would be great. I would be here for that. But instead, it’s just like Edward objectifying her and objectifying her and it’s for her own good. That’s the thing that gets me, whereas, again, not to make a huge deal of comparing Buffy to Twilight, but the acknowledgement in Buffy is there. “Your behavior is bad. I might like you. I might feel a little flattered by the fact that you’re following me around, you little weirdo. But your behavior is creepy and you’re being a creep.”
Merri
Yeah.
Missy
She forgives him. That’s fine. But there’s the acknowledgement that the behavior is a problem. This is a quote from My Vampire Boyfriend: Post-Feminism, Perfect Masculinity, and the Contemporary Appeal of ParanormalRomance, which is by Ananya Mukherjea, who writes, “Vampire boyfriends are complex instantiations of every positive aspect of masculine privilege without personifying those more threatening facets of hyper masculinity, the violence or the uncontrolled sexuality. The great popularity of this genre suggests that many female readers are seeking certainty and protection and to maximize their options as women without curtailing feminine pleasures, desire that is definitely worth acknowledging and addressing. The actual embodiment of such a fraught blend of characteristics, though, would be unwieldy, overbearing, and potentially explosive. We know very well that no human man could emulate a vampire boyfriend. But I would argue, too, that no human man should.” We’ve talked about this in previous episodes on vampire fiction, Twilight and The Vampire Diaries, so I don’t want to dwell on it too much. But I think there is a line between what we want from fictional boyfriends, and fictional vampire boyfriends more specifically, and what we want from real ones, right? The trouble is in drawing those lines in reality, especially when we’re talking about fiction targeted at young readers. Is Twilight encouraging young readers to date men like Edward? I think in some ways it is, but not in merely depicting Edward. I don’t think that just having Edward existing is an issue. In my opinion, the series commits far worse sins than having Edward be controlling, especially because he does acknowledge when he’s wrong.
Merri
That’s another really good example or point of the difference between what I like. What I like is for adults.
Missy
Yeah.
Merri
It’s for adults.
Missy
I think – adults are not immune to ideology. But at the same time, as we talked about, in our first Twilight episode, the hypodermic needle model for how we interact with fiction is generally disproven, right? Less research has been done on young readers, but – give them the tools to succeed. You know, I think, that given the tools to succeed, this isn’t such an issue. I think it’s not wrong to fantasize about things you don’t want in reality, I say. I also think it’s important to provide alternatives and to encourage questions for young readers. Like if I were a parent or an aunt, to a young reader who enjoyed this series, I might ask what they like about it, right? What draws them to a character like Edward, I think you can have those conversations without condescension, and emphasize that while it’s fun to read about there are reasons to avoid it in real life. Like I think that those conversations are good and that we need to give young readers the tools to push back and interrogate on the things that they read rather than just saying don’t read that it’s bad for you.
Merri
And then Missy as an aunt hides Alanna books in every single crevice of that child’s room.
Missy
Exactly. Why are you reading about Edward? Read about George. Yeah, I know he’s older than her. Don’t worry about it.
Merri
Don’t think about that.
Missy
Don’t think about it. It’s not important.
Merri
See, just like Edward. Just like Edward.
Missy
Yeah, I know she’s normalizing the May-December romance, don’t worry about it. She just thinks it’s hot. It’s fine.
Merri
There’s a lot of TikToks about that.
Missy
Yeah.
Merri
It’s very funny.
Missy
Everybody can come for Tamora Pierce being problematic because she likes an old boyfriend. But like, listen –
Merri
We’ve all got problems.
Missy
George – George can get it. Anyway –
Merri
I love a good age gap. So I’m with her.
Missy
So let’s talk about rape culture.
Merri
Ugh!
Missy
Let’s get into the parts where I’m actually concerned about the content because – woof!
Merri
Ha ha.
Missy
These books normalize rape culture in a very real way. Rape culture, if you’re not familiar with the term – it’s one of those terms that gets thrown around a lot but not necessarily attached to a particular definition. You know, kind of like emotional labor. That’s another big one. Rape culture is a description of a setting – and the the term arose in second wave feminism, roughly the 1970s. Which means – so, rape culture, the term, means a culture in which rape is normalized and pervasive. Prior to the creation of this term, many people assumed that rape and associated forms of violence – such as other forms of sexual assault and domestic violence, for example – before the term rape culture arose, a lot of people assumed that those things were rare. As this theory has developed, a number of behaviors and normalized ideas have been attributed to rape culture, such as victim blaming, slut shaming, sexual objectification, rigid associations between gender and traits, such as dominance, submission, aggressiveness, passiveness, etc, and teaching women to not get raped rather than teaching men not to rape. We’re using the baseline here, people of any gender can rape people of any gender and the fact that we primarily talk about men raping women is not only a sign of rape culture, but also a perpetuation of it.
Merri
It’s complicated.
Missy
It’s all very complicated. This is harmful to people of all genders, not just women, right? We often talk about the harm that rape culture does to women, which is very real. But in fact, rape culture is harmful to everybody, in the same way that patriarchy is harmful to everybody. The pressure for men to be sexually aggressive and dominant is a negative experience for men too, just as the pressure to be passive is a negative experience for women., and both binary and nonbinary trans people experience harmful stereotypes and pressures of their own in addition to those that affect binary cis people, right? It is a complicated mishmash of just fucking everybody every which way. It’s just bad overall, I think we can agree. It’s rough out there.
Merri
It’s a reverse harem that isn’t fun.
Missy
Yeah, it just sucks. Now, as far as we’ve read, no rape occurs in the Twilight series, aside from Rosalie’s backstory, which is rife with victim blaming.
Merri
I almost died when she’s like, “And then I kind of wish that I was my ugly friend.” Like so much in that moment that she’d – I was like, there’s so much to unpack here, Rosalie.
Missy
Yeah, truly. But I still think it unquestioningly creates a rape culture setting, not only because it is set within our own real world, with a few tweaks, of course, but because of the gender politics and the actions of the characters, but especially how those actions are received. So one of the first things I want to talk about here is male dominance and female submission. These are two criteria for a rape culture, because there are rigid assumptions about how men and women should behave. If all men should be dominant, and all women should be submissive – according to our culture perception, which I think is, generally speaking, something that we still as a culture hold to even if like there is more pushback on it. So if our culture says all men should be dominant, and all women should be submissive, that means that people who are not those things are deviant, right? That brings us into victim blaming. For example, if a woman does not behave “appropriately,” according to our culture, she is deviant and potentially sending the “wrong message.” So if a woman does not behave appropriately according to our culture, she is deviant and therefore potentially sending the wrong message to men who cannot be expected to control themselves because of their innate tendency towards sexual aggression. Again, according to culture. These are not things that we believe here on Fake Geek Girls. So if a woman dresses too sexually or behaves too aggressively, according to rape culture, she is essentially tempting fate, right? She is doing something deviant and therefore, within rape culture, she maybe not deserves to be punished, but she can’t be surprised when she is punished.
Merri
You kind of feel this when Bella goes to Port Townsend –
Missy
Yeah!
Merri
– and almost gets raped and you’re like, “Well, Bella, why are you doing that?”
Missy
Right?
Merri
But it’s like, no.
Missy
Yeah. While this itself doesn’t come up in Twilight. – again, aside from Rosalie’s backstory – we do see gendered power dynamics, especially in Edward and Bella’s relationship. While Bella clearly wants to have sex with Edward, he shuts her down.
Merri
So bad.
Missy
She wants – she’s so – she wants to go so bad. He shuts her down for a variety of reasons: to protect her soul, because he’s old school, but also because he cannot control himself. That is the given reason. What he means is that he will hurt her because of his big hard body. And not to jump forward, but the literally does hurt her with his big hard body. But there is still the connection between being a man and a lack of control with regard to sex.
Merri
I fucking hate everything he has to say about sex and marriage. I fucking hate it. Every time he’s like, “No, Bella. We have to wait. I’m old fashioned. Let me have this one thing. Blah blah blah.” Shut the fuck up! I can’t stand the way he speaks about marriage and sex. It sounds so condescending. Like she’s just this little girl who doesn’t understand that that “I’m still a predator, but like a good one. But, like, I could still hurt you. Therefore I know what’s best for you.” Fuck you. Just fuck.
Missy
So this is a quote from Denial and Salvation: The Twilight Saga and Heteronormative Patriarchy, which is by Ashley Donnelly, who writes “While many read the abstinence in the series as a guide to Christian morality for horny teenagers, there are arguably other latent messages associated with this emphasis on denial. Edward’s denial not only controls his life choices, but Bella’s as well, and this control over her decisions reflects the strong patriarchal dominance of the tales. From Edwards nearly complete control of Bella’s life to the acceptance of domestic abuse and the binding of females in the werewolf community, men are frighteningly superior throughout the series. Edward’s ‘moral restraint’ indicates not only his ability to dominate his relationship with Bella, but also implies that masculine strength is needed to restrain the wild feminine, a theme present throughout the entire series, which clearly celebrates patriarchal dominance and heteronormativity.” Edward isn’t the only controlling man in this series. That’s the one we talk about most often, like – when I say we, I mean culturally, when this book comes up, we often talk about Edward’s bad behavior, but he’s not the only one. He’s kind of the most direct about it in that he controls Bella’s life direction, her relationship, and her sexual desire, but also the werewolves are all men except Leah, who, without a shred of irony, is the bitchiest woman in the story that isn’t a villain. Charlie tries and admittedly fails to control her dating life. Bella’s biggest struggle is being torn between two men who want to determine her future. The Cullens are a patriarchal family, and so on. It’s not just that you have men in positions of power, but that men are always the authority, the deciders, and the aggressors, especially over women’s destinies.
Merri
And I think when I read this in the outline, I was like this. This is what bothers me about his conversation about sex and marriage. Ultimately, he’s taking away all of her choice. Even the choice to have sex while she’s a human. Every single thing that she has, he’s talking about, like, “Oh, all these human human experiences, you won’t be able to have any more,” but he’s taking the ones she wants away. And so it’s just – like not like wanting to wait for marriage, like not wanting to wait to get married. Not allowing – not having sex, lieke, yes, Edward has every right to say like, “I don’t want to have sex.”
Missy
Yeah.
Merri
But that’s – he does. You know he fucking does. And he’s completely taking away any option she has. They don’t even fucking do anything besides smooch with their mouths closed.
Missy
Yeah. And because Edward really becomes the guardian of Bella’s chastity, it really hammers home that a woman’s sexuality does not belong to her, but rather to her future male partner. There is no room for queerness in Twilight, just full stop. But the idea that her chastity or her virginity, as this book would think about it – virginity is a social construct, it is not real, disclaimer – but the fact that her chastity belongs to her future male partner is rape culture. The idea that sex with a woman is the domain of men who are constructed as aggressive and domineering, that’s rape culture right there. And I believe that this series attempts to get around that by having Edward be respectful and encouraging of Bella when it comes to other issues like going to college. But a gentleness in some regards does not override the protective guarding of her chastity, which we’ll get to in a moment after we talk about one of the series’ other uncomfortable ideas: imprinting
Merri
[DISGUSTED NOISE]
Missy
So, imprinting comes up in this book, but is a larger factor in Breaking Dawn. Imprinting in nature – it’s a real thing – it’s a process by which animals form deep bonds with animals, people, or objects that they are presented with at critical moments in their development. This helps the animal develop important bonds with their parents for protection as well as forming their own identity. Some research historically has shown that, for example, a wild bird imprinting on a domesticated bird can result in more domesticated behaviors in the wild bird. I did not look too deeply into this, so don’t quote me on that.
Merri
Sounds right.
Missy
But like, at least one study shows that. That is not quite what’s happening in the Twilight series as far as imprinting goes. As Jacob describes, imprinting is a process by which werewolves essentially discover their soulmates. They see the person they’re meant to be with and every other aspect of devotion falls away, even if it wrecks their other relationships. He also states that it’s actually not creepy at all. Because if the person they imprint on is underage at the time, they simply have just a really good older brother with no sexual feelings whatsoever.
Merri
This is another one of those – feeling really defensive.
Missy
Yes.
Merri
So defensive. Like, literally Jacob is defensive in this. He’s literally like, “I know this sounds bad, but – ” But like, here’s the thing, it is bad.
Missy
It’s just a lot of like anticipating backlash and responding to it without just like doing any work to just – okay, like, then show me.
Merri
Just be bad. And be like, “Yeah. Now we have to keep them away from her until she’s of age.” I’d read that.
Missy
I mean, well, wait until Breaking Dawn.
Merri
Fuck me.
Missy
And just like with a lot of Twilight, it’s not hard to understand why this might be appealing to people, right? The whole like soulmate thing is very appealing to a lot of people. The idea of like –
Merri
I love A Court of Thorns.
Missy
Yeah, like the idea of like this destined, one person is the right person for you. That’s appealing to a lot of people. And I don’t think that that inherently is wrong. But women do not get any say here, except, presumably Leah. They literally become the object of obsession for these men. And we’re meant to just be like, “Oh, it’s chill because it’s romantic and/or innocent. In the context of domineering men and rape culture we’re discussing, though, it’s yet another red flag. Men literally have objects of obsession who do not get any say in being the object of obsession. If a woman were to say no to this relationship, she’d essentially be saying, “You deserve to be alone forever”. Like, there’s no room for a woman to say no.
Merri
Yeah, no,there isn’t.
Missy
It’s just so much, you know? It’s just so much.
Merri
Especially like, imagine growing up knowing you can’t date anyone else. Like, you can’t. You can’t, because of the way that the wolves are written.
Missy
Literally a big scary man has entitlement over your body. That’s fucked up., Stephanie.
Merri
Yeah, Stephanie.
Missy
That’s fucked up, Stephanie.
Merri
That’s why – just make them evil.
Missy
The thing – yeah. It’s like, okay, I understand how in the context of a different style of book this would just be like, Oh, spicy! But this is not that book. This is just painting it as good and right.
Merri
I read a really good fanfiction, which unfortunately caved to a lot of criticism. It was a Reylo fanfiction. It was one of the soulmates, like the soulmate mark ones, and Rey was underage in it, and Ben had to deal with the fact that she’s underage, and like, not wanting to engage in that, and he leaves for a really long time. And it was – it had a really good conversation about this kind of thing, and how to deal with it. And I was pissed, because so many people got mad at her for having him leave until she was like, 25, or something like that. I’m like, Yo, dude,it was the right thing to do.
Missy
I think – like sincerely, his is not a trope that I’m into. But like many things, just because I personally am not into it doesn’t mean that it can’t be done in a way that doesn’t like, totally squick me out. You know, I think that indulging in sometimes our less savory fantasies is not inherently a bad thing. But like, let’s be honest about it and not act like, well, actually, it’s chill, because he’s only a big brother while she’s underage, and then magically, when she turns 18, then he’s DTF. Like, let’s just be like, men can fucking have restraint. Or, I’m not sexually attracted to a child – I just, like, acknowledge it! Like acknowledge this is this is an unequal power dynamic, and I’m going to do whatever I can to make it equal, or say, it’s kind of fucked up, isn’t it? Just be –
Merri
Fucked up, right?
Missy
Be honest, I just – when it comes to this kind of thing, I just want honesty about what’s going on. I want the acknowledgement that like, this is kind of fucked up. And if we’re going to have this essentially, men’s desire, overpowers women’s desire, then let’s talk about that.
Merri
Yeah, cuz you have to talk about – there eventually has to be a conversation of like, at what point is it okay to be sexually attracted to your now soulmate? What age is that? And how are you going to deal with that? And like, yeah, it may not be creepy now – let’s accept the idea that he’s like a big brother. But what happens? When does that change? And how do you handle that? You can’t just accept that.
Missy
Yeah, I just want some acknowledgement that it’s complicated. And that choice is being made. And it’s not just a magical switch that flips at some point, you know? So let’s talk about abstinence. I want to talk a little bit about chastity and the book’s relationship with abstinence, because it’s everywhere. Again, we’ve talked before about Meyers’s religion, and how that is a factor in the romance that she’s writing, which in this case, does not include premarital sex for reasons that are articulated quite clearly in the book as involving sin, right?
Merri
This was the hardest thing for me to, not reconcile, continue to tell myself, “She’s Mormon. This is something she deeply believes in. I have to accept that this is part of this world.”
Missy
It’s simply not part of your worldview.
Merri
Yeah.
Missy
This book is quite clear that sin is a factor here. It is not just –
Merri
Sin is very, very real.
Missy
Yeah, sin is real to these characters. Now, Bella doesn’t seem particularly worried about the idea of being sinful. Or maybe she has a liberal interpretation of what premarital sex entails. Honestly, like, – because there is a lot of like, even within Christian communities, what counts as virginity? Is it penetrative? Is it a handjob? Is it anal
Merri
Is it kissing?
Missy
Yeah. Like what – as I said, virginity is not real. So that’s why you can you can have these kind of flexible definitions of what counts. So it is, you know, it is quite possible that Bella has a liberal interpretation of what sex entails. Like it could be that maybe she just wants to do oral. It is possible that that’s what’s going on. But Edward sure has an idea of what sex is. And as the guardian of her chastity and the person who she wants to have sex with, he gets final say. Now one thing I want to distinguish here is that anybody has the right to refuse sex at any time for literally any reason. If Edward doesn’t want to have sex, he does not want to have sex. And that is enough.
Merri
Cool!
Missy
My issue is not with Edward wanting to wait until marriage, which is fine, but rather with what that choice is saying and what it is doing to Bella in the larger context of this book, and looking beyond that, in rape culture. What people do or do not do before marriage is none of my business. But we’re not talking about real people. We’re talking about fictional people within a fictional world made up by an author whose work contains racism and sexism in a lot of ways.
Merri
It really feels like he uses getting married to hold her hostage, like you have to get married or we can’t have sex, and it’s not necessarily like that’s his true belief. Which, it is framed as his true belief in there but it really doesn’t feel that way. It really feels like “You can’t be too horny unless we’re married!”
Missy
It feels chastising and it’s like –
Merri
Especially because she doesn’t want to get married!
Missy
Listen, a lot of people experience premarital desire. You don’t have to shame the desire, right? Like a lot of people experience that.
Merri
Or find other ways to like, you know, gain pleasure without touching each other? I don’t know.
Missy
Listen, there’s all kinds of stuff you can do.
Merri
All kinds!
Missy
It’s 2022. It wasn’t for these characters, but it is now. This is a quote from Team Bella: Fans Navigating Desire, Security, and Feminism by Ananya Mukherjea, who writes, “Bella learns early on to hold very still and resist the urges of her lust when Edward kisses her to help him maintain the control necessary to prevent his accidentally killing her. Meyer explained in an interview with the website Twilight Lexicon that the venom in Edwards mouth prevents what she called ‘True snogging’ with the human Bella, precluding open-mouth kisses and other intimacies that might result in the transfer of saliva. Each of Meyer’s vampires chooses one true eternal mate and there are no gay characters or explicit references to homosexuality at all.”
Merri
Okay, can I – there’s so much to unpack here. But like, is the idea that if I just spit on someone, they’ll turn into a vampire?
Missy
I don’t think it’s quite that.
Merri
So why can’t she ingest this venom?
Missy
Because that would start –
Merri
She’s not going to ingest it into her fucking vagina!
Missy
I think that would begin the process of transformation.
Merri
So you just go around spitting on people.
Missy
I think it has to essentially get into like a mucous membrane. In the same – well, here’s how you can think of it. And this is bad. But think of it like an STD.
Merri
Oh, yeah.
Missy
Vampirism is not necessarily a sexually transmitted disease. But it also kind of functions like a sexually transmitted disease, right, in the way that Edward is protecting her from his venom.
Merri
So there – [IN THE STYLE OF EMINEM’S ‘VENOM’] venom – there’s literally no – like she has never touched the inside of his mouth?
Missy
As far as I understand, no.
Merri
She has – I want you to think about that, viewers. She has never touched the inside of his mouth, unless it was like her fingers or her toes.
Missy
[LAUGHING] Her fingers. Ew.
Merri
I don’t know. Maybe she’s finding pleasure some other way.
Missy
Maybe.
Merri
But she has never touched the inside of that man’s mouth.
Missy
Yeah.
Merri
Is there saliva if he’s just a rock?
Missy
Apparently.
Merri
I guess there’s venom?
Missy
Yeah. There’s always Venom. Each one of the sentences in this quote here is a whole new layer to dive into. It’s a real seven layer bean dip of ‘what the fuck.’ Edward’s restraint is a big part of his appeal as a character, right? Like, I think we can understand that the fact that Edward has so much restraint toward Bella is part of what makes him an endearing character to a lot of people.
Merri
Yes.
Missy
Especially because, as we’ve talked about in the past, it sets him apart from other male characters. Like, certainly he’s positioned against Jacob, who has no restraint. But Bella is also responsible for controlling herself to not set his monstrous urges off, which is like – that’s just rape culture.
Merri
I think that what she was trying to – I think there’s a lot of things going on that she’s trying to do. But if I were to give her as much credit as I could, I would imagine she’s trying to recreate tension in these books that Bella likes, like, Pride and Prejudice and things like that.
Missy
Right? Wuthering Heights.
Merri
Yeah, this tension of like, you don’t really touch each other, but there’s clearly a lot of sexual tension going on. And you both want to bone but you know, there’s sexual tension going on. You can’t do anything.
Missy
You have too many clothes on to bone.
Merri
Yeah. And then in the end, you bone and so I think it’s this tension of building up to when they finally do have sex. I feel like if I were to give her all the credit and not think about anything else, maybe that’s what she was trying to do.
Missy
Yeah. And I think – well, I think that the thing that she’s missing here is that the women in those stories still have agency. They are making a choice not to have premarital sex, right? Like that is a choice that they’re making. That is not a choice that Bella is making. That is a choice that Edward is making. And again, Edward has the right to not want to have sex before marriage, but it is under the guise of protecting Bella from his monstrous libido and his rockhard body and his monstrous urges to just destroy her. Buddy. That’s rape culture. Like, the idea that a man cannot control himself. That’s rape culture. That’s just what it is. Even if he is a literal monster, the woman needing to control her sexuality to avoid sending a man into some kind of fucking frenzy is literally the rhetoric I was taught as part of my abstinence-only sex education. That is what I was taught in no uncertain terms.
Merri
Yeah. Exactly. Like literally.
Missy
Literally down to the kissing. Right?
Merri
Like, literally.
Missy
This is from the fucking rulebook out of our seventh grade abstinence-only sex education.
Merri
Maybe Stephanie Meyer wrote it.
Missy
Maybe!
Merri
I am definitely reading a book where he is a monster, and he really can’t control himself and he really tries to hold himself back. But he’s also a dragon.
Missy
Right. You know. And you can see how this harms people of all genders, right? Women must be chaste. Men are quote-unquote, ‘uncontrollable monsters.’ It’s not good for anybody. This is a miserable life. The part about kissing here with the venom is so strange. Apparently, they’re just lightly kissing one another on the lips after a year of dating.
Merri
So when she turns into a vampire, do you think they’re kissing will sound like just two rocks?
Missy
It sounds like when you throw a rock, like you have a big rock, and you throw it into the shallows at the ocean, it’s just like [WEIRD SOUND EFFECT]. It’s kind of wet but it’s really clunky.
Merri
I do like my note here. How do you even kiss a rock?
Missy
Yeah, there are activities that do not involve swapping spit, but they are arguably probably too close to sex. And I don’t know why this just blasts me right out of my body to think of a modern teenager who clearly wants to have sex just sitting there lightly smooching her undead boyfriend so he doesn’t kill her. But I just – I read that and I was like –
Merri
I literally thought to myself, What did I just read?
Missy
Yeah.
Merri
What did I just read?
Missy
Just – just don’t.
Merri
Which is why when she kisses Jacob, and she’s like – I’m assuming it was not just a quick li’l peck.
Missy
No.
Merri
She’s like, “Oh, clearly, I’m in love with him too.”
Missy
Yeah.
Merri
Well, yeah, girl because you had an actual good kiss.
Missy
Yeah, girl had her first surge of hormones.
Merri
Yeah, like you didn’t even fall in love with him. You fell in love with kissing.
Missy
Yeah. And, you know, heteronormativity sure is a thing here. I don’t even know that it’s heteronormativity so much as a complete and utter lack of queerness anywhere. There is no room for queerness in the series. Heterosexuality isn’t just normal, it is the only option. And given the overarching themes of religion and purity, it’s not surprising, but it makes me feel like this is an especially hostile space to queerness. Like this series, it is – I know out there people are, you know, imagining queer versions of Alice in particular.
Merri
Oh, yeah.
Missy
I know that. But me trying to do that in my mind – I can’t. This book, this series, feels actively hostile to queerness.
Merri
Which is so interesting when like you really do see, quite often, women being like “Alice showed me I like more than dudes,” and like, I just love that because this book truly is like “Alice loves dude.”
Missy
Yeah. Like, like you do you – every person has the right to imagine characters in whatever way they choose. But to me this series feels so hostile to queerness that I simply can’t make it work without fundamentally changing so much of the story.
Merri
I feel like Rosalie could have been queer.
Missy
I wish.
Merri
I feel like that would have – it would have it would have tracked.
Missy
Yeah, I would love to have a bitchy lesbian, but Stephenie Meyer is like no.
Merri
Those don’t exist.
Missy
Those don’t exist. This is a quote from Twilight has Created a New YA Genre: Abstinence Porn, which is by Christine Siefert, who writes, “ltimately, it’s a statement of the sexual politics of Meyer’s abstinence message. Whether you end up doing the nasty or not doesn’t ultimately matter. When it comes to a woman’s virtue, sex, identity, or her existence itself, it’s all in the man’s hands. To be the object of desire in abstinence porn is not really so far from being the object of desire in actual porn.” I believe that Siefert was actually the person to coin ‘abstinence porn’ as a description of what’s happening in Twilight, meaning that the book is fiction meant to titillate through denial, right? And I think that’s exactly what happens in the series. It is fiction, titillating through denial. Not in like the typical way.
Merri
Bridgerton did this really good.
Missy
You know what I mean?.
Merri
Bridgerton did this well.
Missy
Not in that way. But by specifically being about abstinence, because this is an abstinence book. What Siefert – or Siefert, I’m sorry don’t know if it’s Siefert or Siefert – what she explains here is that even though Bella and Edward don’t have sex and therefore Bella isn’t objectified in the way we might expect from traditional pornography, she is still objectified because, as she says later in this essay, Bella is not in control of her body as abstinence proponents would argue. She is absolutely dependent on Edwards ability to protect her – her life, her virginity, and her humanity. She’s the object of his virtue, the means of his ability to prove his self control. In other words, Bella is a secondary player in the drama of Edward’s abstinence.
Merri
Yep.
Missy
Because a lot of abstinence advocates – abstinence-only education advocates – suggest that it is further in support of a woman’s choice to choose to be abstinent. But in this book, Bella’s not making a choice.
Merri
Bella is not the Mormon.
Missy
Bella is literally not – if Edward was down to fuck, Bella would be down to fuck.
Merri
Bella would be the first one there.
Missy
Yeah, she’d show up, party hat on.
Merri
And that’s it.
Missy
And that’s it. Nothing but a party hat. But it’s Edwards choice, right? It’s not about Bella’s choice. If Bella had her choice, they’d be doing it. But Edward is the one making the choice here, saying “No, no, no, we don’t do that.”
Merri
And I think that’s – in the context of Stephenie Meyer is trying to create, I think that’s supposed to be even more like, “Oh!”
Missy
“What a good man.”
Merri
“What a good man.”
Missy
Yeah.
Merri
“What a man, what a man, what a very -“
Missy
“What a mighty good man.”
Merri
“What a mighty good man.”
Missy
Bella is in danger from Edward. Sure. Literally, right? Like, that’s true. But this isn’t really even about her physical body. It’s about their immortal souls, and especially Edward’s soul, since he’s so torn up about being a monster. If Bella had a different boyfriend who wouldn’t literally kill her, I feel like she’d probably have sex with him. I don’t think she’d be all that worried about it. But because Edward’s abstinence is the focus here and Edward guards Bella’s body and soul, she doesn’t. Her body is the thing that Edward must resist, which turns her into an object, even if she isn’t having sex. She’s objectified by Edward’s abstinence rather than by sex. It’s fascinating. Like I find that very interesting, but I think it’s also rape culture, right? It is still relying – it is still the story of Edward’s abstinence against Bella’s wild, untamed sexuality, with Bella being essentially in the wrong. I appreciate that the book doesn’t go out of its way to be like “Bella’s disgusting because she’s horny.” But at the same time, having Edward be the one to be the guardian of her chastity does kind of paint her desire as deviant in some sense.
Merri
Oh, I think it totally does. I totally think it does. I think it’s trying to give Bella some more texture.
Missy
Yeah. Like I’m like – let Bella be horny.
Merri
Yeah. What was that – I support women’s wrongs?
Missy
Yeah. I want to – I feel like a lot of my irritation here could be could be soothed, maybe not erased, but soothed by Bella, leaving Edward’s house and going home and opening up AO3. That’s all you got to say. We can figure out the rest.
Merri
I know, right? Like there’s no – I mean, if she’s not doing anything to help herself, it’s only making things worse.
Missy
Yeah. And I don’t know. Not everybody’s ready to have sex in high school. Not everybody’s even ready to masturbate. You know?
Merri
Everyone do you.
Missy
Everybody does their own thing, but I think that acting like desire can only be fulfilled through sex, and not even just curiosity. Like I feel like Bella has no curiosity about sex.
Merri
Well, up until Bella, Edward hasn’t had any.
Missy
Yeah.
Merri
And even then, I think it’s debatable that Edward does have curiosity about having sex with her. I think he’s more worried about literally saving her.
Missy
I think literally Edward may never have felt desire until Bella.
Merri
Yeah, no, I think that’s true.
Missy
So Bella is allowed to be unabashedly horny and she isn’t shamed for that, really, which I do appreciate. There’s not even really a move to shame her for wanting sex before marriage. I think there’s this sort of like, “Ugh, humans and their base needs” tone at times. But it feels like we’re meant to identify with Bella in these moments where she is, you know, being horny. I think we’re meant to identify with Bella rather than the vampires, even if we aren’t meant to aspire to be them. It just sucks that she’s not allowed anything at all. Like use your imagination, Edward. Use your imagination, Bella.
Merri
He could write her a fanfiction of themselves.
Missy
Writing her- I mean, return to the Wuthering Heights since – I mean I haven’t read Wuthering Heights, but like return to the novels that – write a spicy letter. Tuca and Bertie got it! With Bertie being obsessed with the Regency romance where they kissed each other after 85 years.
Merri
Yeah,
Missy
She gets it! Like you don’t have to literally have sex to fulfill desire. That’s what I’m getting at with the AO3 thing. But yeah, that’s what I’m getting at. You don’t have to literally touch yourself. You don’t have to do – because, I mean, that probably is considered sinful within the context of these characters, right? Like, that’s still probably a sin. Experiencing desire might be a sin. I’m not super familiar with what counts and what doesn’t count. So don’t quote me on that. I’m not an expert. But I also think that an acknowledgement that desire doesn’t have to literally mean having sex or masturbation or any of those things would have gone a long way to making me feel less like Edward’s just controlling her virginity.
Merri
I can’t stand him.
Missy
Yeah, he sucks.
Merri
Everything that has to do with this conversation and him just pisses me off.
Missy
Yeah.
Merri
It just makes me so mad.
Missy
It’s rough. Do you have anything else to say about that mess, about abstinence and rape culture.
Merri
I feel like part of this, our anger, also comes from just our childhood and what we were taught.
Missy
It’s true, it’s true. So one weird angle here – I had a lot of feelings reading this book. I’m from the Pacific Northwest. I’m from the Seattle area. I grew up here. I’ve lived here my whole life. And the way that Seattle is discussed in this series, and in this book in particular, really interested me with regard to class. So I’m going to take you on a little detour here to talk about Seattle and its demographics, and its recent history, but bear with me, we will return to Twilight. One thing we haven’t talked about much is that vampire fiction is often associated with conversations about class. This is very common. A lot of vampire stories, they’re about consumption, right? Like that is what they are about. They are about someone consuming, feeding off of somebody else. This goes all the way back to Dracula, arguably even earlier. But Dracula is the one that like a lot of people talk about, the Bram Stoker version, which people have read a number of themes into, including that it is about the exploitation of the lower classes by the aristocracy, or the exploitation of the white English by the outsider. There’s a number of readings that you can pull from it. I can’t speak to that, because I didn’t finish reading Dracula. I actually am reading it right now, because of Dracula Daily, which is a newsletter that sends you real-time bits from Dracula because it’s written in a epistolary fashion, meaning that every day – or not every day, but every day that Jonathan Harker wrote in his diary or wrote a letter, I get a new email about what’s happening in Dracula today.
Merri
Oh my gosh.
Missy
Anyway, so I’m reading drag him that way. But I wanted to consider that, in the context of Twilight, especially because, as a Seattle area person, I was really struck by the way that class is, or rather isn’t, represented in the books and the movies especially. And in Eclipse specifically, how gang violence is initially blamed for the newborn vampire murders. Like I said, this is gonna feel like a left turn because like, why am I talking about gang violence? Seattle, like many large cities, does have gangs. They exist, and they have gang violence, like they’re real. It’s not that they don’t happen in Seattle. But it’s not a really prominent concern.
Merri
No
Missy
Here. If there was a string of murders in Seattle, especially right now, it would be blamed on homelessness.
Merri
Yep.
Missy
That’s what it would be. If you’re not from this area, you may not know this, this is really a Puget Sound thing. But with Amazon and the many other large tech companies moving into Seattle, much of the affordable housing has been purchased by tech workers or rented by tech workers. Basically, there’s a lot of gentrification happening. Which drastically changes neighborhood culture and has resulted in violence, especially against marginalized people in areas like Capitol Hill. Raising rents also drive low-income people out into the streets, meaning that homelessness is an increasingly visible problem in Seattle. Homelessness has always existed in Seattle, but the problem is growing in visibility. You see more and more – you literally see more and more homeless people because of this myriad of issues with regard to house pricing i- homelessness is a complicated issue. But at its basis, like at its most basic level, homelessness is to not have a home and when the homes are too expensive, more people do not have a home. And like I said, increasing in visibility in Seattle, to the point that our local Sinclair station, Sinclair being like a right-wing media organization. The station is called KOMO. They produced a documentary called Seattle is Dying about how homelessness is ruining – like homelessness, specifically – not income disparity, tech industries, gentrification, any of those related issues. The documentary is about how homelessness is ruining Seattle. It was full of misinformation and extremely biased reporting but because it came from a news station, everybody just bought into it, right? But there’s a pretty noticeable divide in attitudes about homelessness before and after this documentary aired. The documentary is so fear-mongering –
Merri
It’s not great. I’ve only seen parts of it, but it’s bad.
Missy
Yeah, the attitudes in what going to Seattle is like are noticeably different before and after Seattle is Dying aired. Like before Seattle is Dying aired, I never got questions about like, “Is it safe to go to Seattle?” Yeah, it’s safe.
Merri
Yeah, at my job, one of the things that we did was we gave out some Mariners tickets, and we had somebody contact us and be extremely angry that the prize for this was Mariners tickets, because that meant she would have to take her children to Seattle. And how dare we? How dare we force her to take her children to Seattle where it’s so dangerous,
Missy
And of course people are always going to worry about being in a big city for a lot of reasons. But the attitude about the safety of Seattle drastically changed before and after this documentary.
Merri
Like even though Seattle – the danger comes from the fucking tech bros.
Missy
Right. We know that Stephenie Meyer didn’t go to Forks before writing this book, right? She’d never been there.
Merri
Obviously, because she wouldn’t it wouldn’t just be like “Let’s go to Seattle!”
Missy
That’s a drive!
Merri
That’s a fucking drive.
Missy
And just to be clear, too, Forks is a town heavily affected by the shrinking logging industry after protections for the endangered spotted owl were introduced in the 90s. That is not a place of a just normal middle class. Forks is an area with large income discrepancy. Disparity. Yeah, income disparity. I think that’s the word I’m looking for. Anyway. Anyway, Forks is a logging town. Logging towns were heavily affected by this. And they are not necessarily like the bastion of the middle class. Anyway, so Meyer didn’t go to Forks and likely doesn’t care about Seattle’s culture beyond it being the nearby big city. Right? She probably doesn’t care about that.
Merri
Portland might be closer.
Missy
Might be. She assumes, I believe, that because Seattle is a big city it has gang violence, right? But this struck me as really interesting because of how Seattle is viewed by outsiders. And because class isn’t really something that we have touched on yet. In all honesty, it wasn’t until that documentary aired, and the police brutality protests of 2020 – but that obviously came later – that I ever heard people talking about Seattle as a place that’s unsafe.
Merri
Yeah, as kids like – so we grew up in a small town, as we’ve said before, – one of the things that I would like to do for my birthday often was like, “Let’s go to Seattle,” because that was a trip we got to do. And like as middle schoolers and high schoolers, we’re just walking around alleys. Never felt unsafe.
Missy
No, and our parents would drop us off there. And it wasn’t like, “Be safe, you guys.”
Merri
And it’s not like we didn’t see homeless people.
Missy
Right. Now, I think that that would be something that people are afraid of. As in any city, there are places that are more safe than others. But I don’t remember this pervasive attitude of Seattle being threatening and much of that fear comes not from tech bros who start fights with queer folks on Capitol Hill, but from seeing homeless people. Not homeless people attacking people – just seeing them.
Merri
Yeah, that’s 100% true. When we say the violence that’s happening to queer people on Capitol Hill, like, I don’t think – people are moving out of Capitol Hill. They’re moving out of it because of it. It’s truly a really, really bad situation. And that doesn’t get fucking talked about. But visible homeless people do. How dare they?
Missy
Twilight obviously predates this documentary, Seattle is Dying. But there is an association in the common consciousness between cities and danger – never mind that Washington’s many famous serial killers often operated in small towns – precisely because of class. That is what drives a lot of this fear and racism. Another thing a lot of people don’t know about Seattle is that yeah, it’s more diverse than a lot of Washington, but Washington’s really fucking white.
Merri
Yeah. It’s a lot more conservative than you’d think. Especially the further you get out, but even so.
Missy
The further you get away from I-5..
Merri
But even in Seattle, now with all the tech people. It’s one of those things where I think it’s very like, “Of course, I’m for gay marriage. But Trump was a businessman.”
Missy
Yeah, yeah. And given what Twilight is suggesting about class, and Seattle as a place of gang violence., this really interested me, because I was so struck by the gang violence headline. I was like, “That’s what they – in Seattle, we went with gang violence? That’s where we’re go -“
Merri
Even just like, serial murders.
Missy
Yeah. Like, I would buy that. I mean, we have a reputation. It just struck me as odd. And then I was like, “Why does that strike me as odd?” And it’s like, “Well, I never really hear about gang violence here.” It’s not because it doesn’t happen. It’s just because that’s not –
Merri
It’s not a big issue.
Missy
That’s not the big fear here. So, to return to Twilight, as I said, we came back to it. Obviously, the Cullens are super, super wealthy. And we’ve already established that they’re aspirational, right? The Cullens are like super rich and the book wants us to be the Cullens. It’s like, Wouldn’t you love to be it? And it’s like, yeah, I kind of would, you know, I gotta be honest, I would love to have disposable income. Could I sleep at night? I don’t know.
Merri
Well, can you now?
Missy
But the thing is I wouldn’t have to sleep at night because I’m a vampire! Twilight is drawing a clear line between what people ought to strive for – eternal life, whiteness, wealth and restraint, right? These are things that are all entangled within the world of Twilight, I don’t think we need to trot out the examples because it’s all right there in the text. This is a quote from “Mainstream Monsters,: The Otherness of Humans in Twilight, The Vampire Diaries, and True Blood,” which is by Mark Ryan, who writes, “Part of the enduring appeal of the vampire is that they often lead extraordinarily luxurious lives and excessive or extreme forms of capitalism are tropes which have always been prominent in contemporary vampire fiction. A glance at the Collins light, airy mansion, a striking contrast to Dracula’s dark and dilapidated castle, confirms the wealth of the Cullen family, no doubt due to centuries of compound interest and Alice’s forecasting abilities.”
Merri
Cheating.
Missy
Yeah! “Their wealth is also evidenced by 17-year-old Edward Collen’s ride to school, a silver Volvo, the suite of luxury vehicles in the Cullens’ garage, including a Mercedes and Porsche, and the honeymoon destination, the Cullen’s privately owned island off the Brazilian coast.” Sorry for the spoiler.” “The theme of wealth and excess has been an enduring one, as Gelder has argued, ‘The vampire’s nature is fundamentally conservative. It never stops doing what it does. But culturally, this creature may be highly adaptable. Thus it can be made to appeal to or generate fundamental urges located somehow beyond culture, desire, anxiety, fear, while simultaneously, it can stand in for a range of meanings and positions in culture.'” So, unlike Dracula, or many other historical vampire narratives, the Cullens do not inhabit a decaying castle because their way of life is not fading and is not being critiqued, right? Unlike Dracula, they are not relics of the past, even though they are literally relics of the past. This is not a gothic novel in that sense. And because the Cullens do not feed off of humans, there is no criticism of the wealthy class feeding off of the working class, as there is in some other modern vampire stories. Even though the Southern Vampire Mysteries aka True Blood, and Anne Rice’s books often humanize vampires, in my opinion, there is still some attempt to portray them as feeding off of humanity in a destructive fashion, right?
Merri
Well, look at Bill.
Missy
Yes, Sookie is horrified by the way that Eric acts on occasion. She’s still like, “I’d hit it, though,” but she’s also kind of horrified by the shit that he does, right? The vampires in these stories do not care about human life the way that humans do. Instead, in Twilight, the Cullens are aspirationally wealthy figures without flaws. They’re distant, but caring to those around them. They are Good People with a capital G and a capital P. What we’re being told here is that there is nothing wrong with amassing huge quantities of wealth and spending it only on yourself. Though the Cullens do not commit physical violence against humans, there is nothing said or even implied about hoarding wealth you do not need and the effects that may have on a community, especially a community like Forks, which again was highly impacted by spotted owl protections in the 90s. Now, I’m all for environmentalism. I’m all for protecting the spotted owl. But this was not inconsequential for the people that lived in Forks, right? This is not inconsequential for the logging industry. And that’s something that we have to acknowledge, right? Like we have to understand that people’s lives were effectively ruined by this and communities like Forks, communities like even Darrington up north. I think –
Merri
Even Snohomish.
Missy
Snohomish.
Merri
It’s picked itself back up, [but] the issues with… milk. Cows.
Missy
Dairy?
Merri
Dairy farms.
Missy
Yeah. These have real impacts on people that contribute to poverty in these communities. And here come the fuckin Cullens in their mansion. Just hoarding wealth –
Merri
Their ugly mansion.
Missy
– that they don’t need. They don’t even eat!
Merri
Just let them be bad. Let them have started a wildlife sanctuary where they also use it to hunt responsibly. Brilliant.
Missy
Yeah. This is another quote here from”Happily Forever After: Constructing Conservative Youth Ideology in the Twilight Serie”s by Julia Perlman, “Though the Vampires of twilight struggle to understand themselves and their place in the world, ultimately Meyer positions the vampire as a figure to which readers aspire. While contemporary popular culture representations of the vampire generally depict ‘a being who is simultaneously terrifying and attractive, even envied, a being whose allure reaches to the deepest levels of the collective unconscious’ the Cullen family are all only terrifying because of their devastating good looks, expensive cars, and designer clothes that signal social superiority, whiteness, and intimidation. Meyer’s vampires embrace a more traditional wholesome lifestyle and take great pleasure in their heightened vampire abilities. Meyer utilizes the subversion Rice founded, embedding the vampire in society, but rather than force the reader to consider his inner demons, tells the reader that the social order is corrupt.” There is usually, like in vampire fiction, generally speaking, there’s some level of horror to a vampire story, including vampire romances, right? There’s usually some – I think it’s abjection – there’s that feeling of revulsion and desire at the same time. There’s the idea of disgust and pleasure at the idea of drinking blood or being so close to life and death at the same time. That’s usually what –
Merri
Taboo.
Missy
Yeah. That’s usually what vampire fiction is trading in. That’s not really the case in Twilight. While there is a threat from some vampires, and Edward does conceivably have the capability to hurt Bella, we never really feel that threat. Except maybe in Midnight Sun, which was published long after the end of the series. There is very little to be afraid of in Twilight. The cullens are not scary. You know, that’s not inherently bad. You can do whatever you want with vampires. And it doesn’t have to be satisfying to me or anybody else. But Meyer’s vampires are aspirational without any of the drawbacks, and arguably make the case that there are good kinds of consumption and bad kinds. And that personal mediation is the solution.
Merri
It makes it feel like she just had like a wheel with like different types of monsters and she spun it. She already had the story, but she just spun it. Like whatever it is, that’s what they are.
Missy
Legit, if they were fairies in the story, I feel like it would not – we would not spend so much fucking time fixating on [INDECIPHERABLE].
Merri
The sparkling would make sense. They’d still need to be evil, though.
Missy
Yeah. So in our second Vampire Diaries episode, we talked about the relationship between this take on vampires and neoliberalism, which is basically that neoliberalism places a lot of emphasis on the individual as a means of getting out of societal problems. So like, the idea that we can, you know, change our light bulbs to end climate change, right? Like, it’s not that simple. Maybe if, yes, if we all use the right kind of light bulbs, we would make an impact on climate change, but it’s still not the fault of the individual that climate change exists.
Merri
The impact would probably be that companies will stop making the other one. And that therefore the companies would be the ones that actually change it. Because they’re the biggest issue,
Missy
Right. So the thing is that neoliberalism – and neoliberalism is a complicated topic that I’m not going to go into all over again – but basically a lot of it is about the freedom of business, and the morality of the individual. That is largely what’s going on here, too. If only all vampires could tighten their belts and eat animals and deny themselves. It’s really – this is a sidebar. It’s really irritating that they say eating animals is like eating tofu. Like –
Merri
That’s gross.
Missy
Hey, Stephenie Meyer. Have you ever had tofu? It’s good, actually. Nevermind that it’s a huge food source elsewhere in the world. So are you telling me that the entire group of people that eats soy as a food source is not eating real food?
Merri
Tofu is delicious.
Missy
Tofu is good as fuck. Anyway.
Merri
You just have to cook it with something.
Missy
Yeah. If you’re just eating raw-ass tofu out of the package at the grocery store that’s on you, buddy. So that’s largely what’s going on here – the idea of replacing a societal problem with the individual action. You know, if all vampires could tighten their belts and only eat animals and deny themselves, the implication is that there would be no larger issue of eating humans. And while I’m not advocating for eating humans – this is not the first time I’ve had to say, ‘I’m not in favor of cannibalism’ on this podcast. I don’t know why this keeps happening. This is a neoliberal perspective, which is in line with the Cullen’s supposedly innocent hoarding of wealth, right? The Cullens aren’t doing anything wrong. They just have money. What’s wrong with that? Right? What’s wrong with that?
Merri
They worked for it.
Missy
They worked –
Merri
They pulled themselves up by their bootstraps.
Missy
They pulled themselves up by Allison – by Allison’s? – by Alice’s visions of the future. This is a quote from Twilight’s Heteronormative Reversal of the Monstrous: Utopia and the Gothic Design, which is by Kelly Budruweit, who writes “In this context, the appeal of Gothic as a new cloaking device for romantic fantasy becomes understandable as a resurfacing of superstition or what Victoria Nelson identifies as, “displaced numen,” which counteracts the dilemma of the rational subject who nonetheless acts as if the mythical relations between things were real. By substituting the exteriorized condition of belief with an internalized faith in the possibility of both magic and romantic love, the guilt over consumerism can be alleviated, the conditions of capitalism disavowed. In short, we can believe that people do not exploit one another. Exploitation is only a choice that some consumers, the less restrained vampires, make. In such a romanticized moral consumerism, people live for each other rather than for individual gain, Such a fantasy is indeed alluring for adolescents and adults alike because it involves more than finding a place to belong, or even the surface level disavowal of aging and death. More than that the utopian Gothic of Twilight offers the fantasy that, given the right community, the path of consumerism leads to heaven.” We discussed in the past how this series fails to engage me as a reader, because while it does hearken to gothic literature, it does so in a way that doesn’t work for me. We don’t have to rehash all of that. But what interested me about this quote was the emphasis on consumerism. What this states is that people don’t exploit one another. Exploitation is a choice rather than a series of choices you may not realize that you’re making, right? A person must consciously think “I am exploiting you,” to exploit you, which is not how the world works.
Merri
If only.
Missy
If only. We know that that’s not true. Ignorance does not erase exploitation. But that is, on some level, the case that Twilight makes. Not only that, but as Budruweit says here, “Given the right community, the path of consumerism leads to heaven.” Eat right and you’ll live a good life, which looks a lot like conspicuous consumption, right? Buy right, and you’ll live a good life. Deny yourself indulgences, and you’ll live a good life. All of this is tied up in literal consumerism and unquestioned capitalism with the accruing of wealth being symbolic of some kind of reward. The Cullens are rewarded with wealth because they’re good people. Nevermind that the hoarding of wealth is bad, actually. It’s messy at best, irritating at worst, and we’ll talk more about it in our next Twilight episode. But I really wanted to mention it here because of everything going on with Seattle and consumption and the moralizing about like – the whole idea of vegetarian vampires. I mean, like on a literal level, you know, do you know what a vegetable is? Because it’s not a deer.
Merri
I know. I always thought that was weird, because like –
Missy
I guess they’re trying to make a little joke. It’s like a little joke, but also it’s not a good joke. I know this is really complex and weird. It was a weird way to talk about this, I think, to bring in Seattle, but that’s how it – that’s what I was struck by is thelack of regard for class when, like, it’s all about class. Like it’s also about racism, which is also about class. Class is one way by which racism is enforced, racism is a way by which class is enforced. These things are complex and I can’t – you can’t consume your way into being a good person, which this series simply does not understand.
Merri
I think it makes sense with this series, especially when you look at how fucking racist it is.
Missy
It’s so racist, you guys.
Merri
And you can’t take that classism away from from the inherent racism that’s in there.
Missy
It’s so racist. But, you know, as we just discussed, you can’t consume your way into being a good person. So I think if you like Twilight, that’s okay.
Merri
Yeah.
Missy
That’s what I want everybody to take – like, it’s okay to like Twilight. I disagree with you, but it’s okay.
Merri
But we’re saying it’s important to understand –
Missy
Yeah, like, come at it and understand, here’s what’s being communicated under the surface. Don’t let that – don’t let that sink in. Don’t letthat sink in. You never hear that on Twitter. Don’t let that sink in. My favorite thing on earth is a picture of like a sink at a door and it says “Let that sink in.” It’s one of those memes that gets me every time. That and “Rat is short for Ratthew.”
Merri
Fucking Ratthew.
Missy
Let that sink in. Anyway, do you have anything else to say about Twilight?
Merri
So one of the things I thought a lot about –
Missy
Or Eclipse.
Merri
– when we – thinking about reading this book and watching the movies, something that –
Missy
Yo, that movie sucked.
Merri
Yeah, the movie sucked. But in the books, they describe the Cullens as beautiful, like, ridiculously beautiful, blah, blah, blah. And in the movies, they look fucking weird.
Missy
They’re so goofy,
Merri
But you know what? I feel like – I’m into it, because I feel like there comes a point where you’re so beautiful you look fucking weird.
Missy
Yeah.
Merri
And I know that probably wasn’t their intention, but for me, it works.
Missy
Yeah, it’s kind of the biblical angel effect.
Merri
Yeah.
Missy
I feel like Jasper Cullen would look at me and say “Be not afraid.”
Merri
They look terrible. They look awful and weird. But in my mind, they’re so beautiful that they look weird.
Missy
They’re uncanny! They got to look a little uncanny.
Merri
Yeah, it’s kind of like fairies, right?
Missy
Yeah.
Merri
If I watch a A Court of Thorns and they look beautiful and not fucking weird, I don’t like it. I’m just gonna be upset. And so like, you know what, I’m sure they didn’t mean for them to look like this. But I like it.
Missy
Yeah.
Merri
I just wanted to say that.
Missy
Yeah. So that was – I’m sorry about the weird diversion. But I thought it was interesting.
Merri
We didn’t haven’t even hit two hours yet.
Missy
And you know what? You have to suffer. You chose to listen to this. You get to listen to my weird thoughts about Seattle. Thank you for indulging me. That’s gonna do it for this episode. You can find us online at fakegeekgirlscast.com, which has all of our previous episodes, including our Twilight and Vampire Diaries episodes, if for some reason you want to listen to us talk more about teen vampires. Y’all, I can’t. I can’t.
Merri
They’re such good conversations, though.
Missy
I’m over teen vampires. We did put What We Do in the Shadows into the poll –
Merri
They’re not teens.
Missy
They’re not teens and I’m – listen, you cannot find a thesis more opposed to Twilight than “I became a vampire so I could suck blood and fuck forever.” And that’s why I want to talk about What We Do in the Shadows. If you like us, consider shooting us an email to join our Discord. Our Discord is a lot of fun. We’re always talking about how much we hate empire waistlines.
Merri
It’s lit.
Missy
It’s lit, as the kids say. I don’t know that they say lit.
Merri
No, I think I read something about what they say –
Missy
They’re saying tubular.
Merri
I hope they’re saying tubular.
Missy
And bodacious.
Merri
They should be. I think that helloa should come back.
Missy
Yeah. I don’t know anything about teenagers. Anyway, our Discord is a lot of fun, you can shoot me an email at contact@fakegeekgirlscast.com and I can get you an invite. We just keep it we don’t publicly post it because –
Merri
People suck.
Missy
I just don’t want the bad faith people getting in there. And then me feeling like I have to like be the fucking Discord police. I like it chill and quiet. Next time, we’re gonna be doing Saint Maud.
Merri
Yay!
Missy
Which is going to be very interesting. I hope you’re excited to talk about William Blake. After that, we’re gonna be we’re going to be doing The matrix series, I would expect maybe two episodes on The Matrix.
Merri
Yeah, I’m gonna say –
Missy
I think we should also talk about The Animatrix.
Merri
I was talking to Bob about it, and he really wants me to watch The Animatrix, and I told him I’d watch it. So.
Missy
Yeah, I think we should also do The Animatrix.
Merri
Yeah. Because he said it bridges the gap between the first movie and the second movie.
Missy
Okay.
Merri
And when I did watch the second movie, I literally was like, “Have I missed something?” And the answer was yes.
Missy
Yeah. So I would expect two episodes on The Matrix, especially because there is so much to talk about in it. I want to talk about simulation theory because again, I’m watching The Good Place, and the part when Michael dumps iced tea over Eleanor for essentially getting into determinism through simulation theory, I’m about it. After that, we’re going to be talking about Pushing Daisies because I deserve nice things. And I like to look at Lee Pace and that’s all.
Merri
That’s going to be the whole episode.
Missy
It’s gonna be like, okay, we’re going to start at the top of his head and go down all the way to his feet, and we’re going to talk about everything we love about Lee Pace.
Merri
When Missy used to have a bad day, I’d spamher with Lee Pace pictures.
Missy
It’s nice. I love it. I love him. He’s a beautiful man. He’s a beautiful big man.
Merri
He is very big.
Missy
He could pick me up in his arms and I would thank him. He could give me a little pat on the head and I would thank him.
Merri
Could he stomp you?
Missy
No. He would never.
Merri
He might.
Missy
Not in Pushing Daisies anyway. In something else, probably, but not in Pushing Daisies. I can’t wait to talk about Pushing Daisies. I finally get to live my dream of talking about how it’s inverse noir. I hope you guys are ready. This is my theory that I’ve been sitting on forever. Thank you for joining us.
Merri
Yeah, catch you on the flip side.
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